Compressor Before Preamp or In the Box?

[tonesponge]

I've been compressing ny bass using the standard protools plugin, and I'm thinking about getting a hardware compressor to use on the way in, before it hits the preamp. Is there any benefit to doing that? Are tube compressors worth the extra money? I'm thinking about the DX 166XL and the ART Pro VLA II. Do either of these work better for bass?

 

[Hellbastard]

A good hardware compressor it's a good idea to have, but you have to remember that if you record your tracks with compressor setting you won't be able to do any changes if you don't like the settings you used. So you need to be sure that you know how to use the compressor and get the settings right before you record.

 

[tonesponge]

I got the ART tube compressor, but the guy at the store told me to place it after the preamp, and I read elsewhere that it should be used instead of the preamp. What's the proper place to put it in the chain?

 

[Hellbastard]

I place after the preamp. But try placing it before and after, see what results you get and which one you like best.

 

[fretno]

I go pre to comp

That ART is pretty good , especially for 2 Buss mix down . Most studios use both a nice tube comp like a LA2A and a FET comp like the classic 1176 , both impart a nice " character " to the sound with the 1176 being a much faster "attack" they both have their place with different sources .You can't have too many of these . I will add a 500 series Pete's Place BAC 500 to my lunchbox and a Overstayer Stereo Compressor to my rig . I still use plugin comps like UAD's and Stillwell Audio comps but I always keep a hold of the level with a hardware comp into the interface .

 

[stretchcat]

I go pre to comp

That ART is pretty good , especially for 2 Buss mix down . Most studios use both a nice tube comp like a LA2A and a FET comp like the classic 1176 , both impart a nice " character " to the sound with the 1176 being a much faster "attack" they both have their place with different sources .You can't have too many of these . I will add a 500 series Pete's Place BAC 500 to my lunchbox and a Overstayer Stereo Compressor to my rig . I still use plugin comps like UAD's and Stillwell Audio comps but I always keep a hold of the level with a hardware comp into the interface .

Nice lunchbox! How do you like the FMR PBC-6A?

 

[fretno]

Nice lunchbox! How do you like the FMR PBC-6A?

Thanks ! It's a fantastic comp , has great color , thick and warm yet punchy and clear . Does everything I need it too . Very easy to use as well .

 

[uhdinator]

yep........a comp needs line level signal from a pre amp.
Instrument level will not be enough to drive it.

Google: "bass compression settings"
you'll find a lot of recommended settings to get you started.
I have 2 DBX 166xl's mostly used for live gigs. DBX manual gives some sample settings too.

Some like to tame the peaks slightly while tracking and use a little plug in comp as well if needed in the mix rather than squeezing the heck out of it before or after.

 

[Charling]

Muchly agreed with the above, plug a bass into a normal hardware compressor and you'll be giving it so little signal the controls will not work properly and you'll likely raise the background noise to a level where you can really hear it.

However, a compressor pedal is a different thing, its designed to go directly after the bass or other fx pedals and will NOT work very well when using it AFTER a pre.

Compressing on the way in is risky for a begginer, but common practice in studios with experienced engineers. It'll force you to get better though so if the results of the recording are not too critical I'd reccommend giving it a go.

Tube compressors will not have any real advantage unless you spend a lot of money. Tube gear costs cash! Cheaper tube stuff, IMO, generally has a detrimental effect on the audio for a number of reasons. Some devices, like the behringer tube path thing, have an LED behind the tube to make it glow as its not even recieving enough current for it to work correctly! Silly, its all a gimmik. If you're looking for a real nice compressor then some of the best compressors you can buy are tube based like the tube tech CL1a or Chiswick reach. These things are off the hook, but cost SERIOUS money.

That said, the colouration added by the ART tube comp or similar may work well for you, there are no real rules They tend to add a bit of what people 'expect' from tubes, rather than a real 'tube-sound', whatever that means...

Out of the two I'd personally go for the DBX, the family it comes from is a real studio staple for bass. If you can find a DBX 160 X for a good price then you are talking classic bass compression! Bass is generally one of the most compressed elements in the mix so a compressor that can 'go far' is preferable. One of the reasons a UA 1176 is so good is that you can pin the GR meter far left and it'll still sound good with the right attack and release. A 160 is similar when used for bass but not as versatile on other instruments (still good though). The 166XL is not as classic, can't go as far and as such doesn't have the 'cheap studio gear that does one job really well' mojo. But its still a very useable come for not a lot of money.

 

[tonesponge]

I've been reading that the ART VLA is good for bass and vocals, and the DBX is better for drums. Does anyone know why that might be the case?

I'm thinking the ARt can be good for tracking with just a little compression, and then more copresison can be added in the box with a hard knee setting for tonal color.

To clarify, the ART VLA is not really a tube compressor. It turns out it is an opto compressor with a tube gain stage in the makeup gain. It's kind of confusing for newbs, but ART makes it clear in their descriptions.

The ART tube PAC is actually a tube pre and tube compressor, and it is a lot less pricey. But it seems like the Crane Song and other really pricey ($5,000 plus) mastering compressors are all discrete circuits, and not tube, opto, or digital. So are the high end preamps, like the neve.

I always thought tubes were preferred, but I guess not always. I saw somewhere that the discrete circuits enhance only odd order harmonics (best case, more smooth), while the tube circuits enhance only even order harmonics (next best case, more brilliant, crisp, or harsh, depending on your taste), and digital circuits enhance both (worst case, icky fizziness).

I also saw one article that said mastering mixes often involves low passing the mix to remove all of the high end harmonics and then using the discrete circuit to add new odd order harmonics generated from the low passed mix.

Does anyone have any experience with the high end compressors, and prefer discrete or tube?

What about opto versus digital in tracking bass/vocals versus drums?

 

[fretno]

That's a massive can of worms and the jump from $99 to 5k is a big one If you want a simple and nice compressor for tracking I would suggest the FMR PBC like I have in that pic or build a 500 series lunchbox as there are many nice units for those as well + you can add some pre's . Or a DBX 160a or the countless proven highend comps depending on your budget there are many good ones to be had. I would suggest you spend some time at gearsluts , all your comp questions about tracking and mastering will be answered

 

[Charling]

I've been reading that the ART VLA is good for bass and vocals, and the DBX is better for drums. Does anyone know why that might be the case?

I'm thinking the ARt can be good for tracking with just a little compression, and then more copresison can be added in the box with a hard knee setting for tonal color.

Ok, well you sound like you've been researching a lot, sure you'll end up with something good!

Most compressors do a lot of things well, don't get too caught up in whats good for what until you REALLY know how to set a compressor. Some are very quick to attribute an instrument to a comp very quickly, and this can mislead people. In real world use you'll find what you like soon enough but it may not be what anyone else likes.

Also, hard knee is not likely to offer any particular tonal colour, well, it will but will be very subtle. Much more likely will be a particular compressors attack and release characteristics which will (in the box) be dependant on the type of compressor it is trying to emulate.

To clarify, the ART VLA is not really a tube compressor. It turns out it is an opto compressor with a tube gain stage in the makeup gain. It's kind of confusing for newbs, but ART makes it clear in their descriptions.

A large amount of tube gear is like this, even pricey stuff. The only compressors which use the tube to actually govern the compression are Vari-Mu's and they are expensive designs. Tubes are essentially the buisiness end of an amp circuit, they aren't useful for compression in their normal application but do very well as part of a make up gain circuit! For example the famous Pultec PE1C eq is just a passive eq with a tube auto makeup gain circuit. they sound AMAZING. Vari-Mu is a family of compressors that use clever techniques to get the tube to govern the compression. Thats why I'd be wary of cheaper tube comps, id rather a simple discrete make up gain circuit and a nice compressor than a nice compressor followed by a cheap tube amp! Even if a nicer tube comp is just using the tube's for make up gain at least you know its going to be a properly implemented and no doubt add a bit of something good to a sound.

The ART tube PAC is actually a tube pre and tube compressor, and it is a lot less pricey. But it seems like the Crane Song and other really pricey ($5,000 plus) mastering compressors are all discrete circuits, and not tube, opto, or digital. So are the high end preamps, like the neve.

I always thought tubes were preferred, but I guess not always. I saw somewhere that the discrete circuits enhance only odd order harmonics (best case, more smooth), while the tube circuits enhance only even order harmonics (next best case, more brilliant, crisp, or harsh, depending on your taste), and digital circuits enhance both (worst case, icky fizziness).

There are PLENTY of tube $5000+ units, and plenty of discrete as well. Ditto pre's. Thats like saying 'I see that all high end basses are active...' Tubes are certainly not always preferred. NOTHING is always preferred! Its all just colours.

High end tube compressors include Fairchild 660's and 670's, UA LA-2A's, Manley Vari-Mu, Chiswick Reach VK-1 (which was designed with mastering in mind), Tube Tech CL1a's and LCA 2b's, etc etc there is loads! All great. Plenty of pre's too, sometimes even whole consoles loaded with tube pre's and aux amps (Chiswick Reach studios has a hand built one of these!)

As for distortion, a well designed circuit of any type should be fairly low in distortion (unless desired). All the comps listed above are very clear and perfect sounding (compared to peoples views of what tubes do). Digital is pretty perfect in terms of distortion, apart from the stuff that creeps in during conversion but thats subtle. There is NO best case! If distortion is required you pick the sort of distortion you want and pick the gear that has it! If you want no distortion, you pick a nice bit of gear Roughly speaking. I like the way tube gear breaks up more than MOST discrete circuits. Driving a pre is nice for a crunch mic or effect but normally not as useful as a bit of tube breakup.

Digital circuits are capable of being VERY clean, with just A/D conversion quality to worry about. A 'digital compressor' means anything from a VST plug-in to a piece of digital outboard, and gets very ambiguos. There is no digital compression circuit as such, just an A/D converter and a mini-computer that knows some compression algorhythms! The icki fizziness generally comes from either bad converters (not common these days) or user error leading to clipping somewhere in the device.

I also saw one article that said mastering mixes often involves low passing the mix to remove all of the high end harmonics and then using the discrete circuit to add new odd order harmonics generated from the low passed mix.

Yup, but only if you don't like the high end harmonics that are there already, you don't do it as a matter of course. Mastering requires very good ears, it can be damaging to your music to follow suggested techniques without really having heard why you need them for a particualr track. Doesn't need to be a discrete circuit either, tubes may be the way to go!

Does anyone have any experience with the high end compressors, and prefer discrete or tube?

What about opto versus digital in tracking bass/vocals versus drums?

Yup, I use most of the above every day. Surprise surprise I have no preference They sound different, choosing one would be like saying 'I always prefer a p-bass'.

I think you are confusing the terms a little. Tube is not a type of compressor (though vary-mu IS and is tube based), opto is one type of compressor (like an LA-2A, which has tubes for the amps, or an LA-3A, which does not), Digital is not really a type of compressor either. There are other compression types like FET (eg. 1176) and VCA (eg DBX 160).

Compressors in the digital realm generally try to emulate the behavior of one of these types, with a few exceptions that perform in a crazy-perfect fashion that is unfasionable at the moment but can be very useful at times. Digital comps have the advantage of always working, always sounding the same, being able to stay in the box, instant recall and huge cost effectiveness.

No one type will suit an instrument on a global scale, but (VERY roughly) if you want smooth compression with (often) a bit more colour and don't need to tame the early part of the transient, go opto. For quick attack, flexible, workhorse compression maybe a VCA. For super quick compression with (sometimes) a bit more of a natural response compared to opto maybe try a FET comp. For super smooth soft knee compression thats quicker than opto (sometimes, a chiswick reach is SLOOOW) then maybe a Vari-Mu. VERY broad generalisations, you need to look at the stats of specific compressors to get a handle on how they behave, and trawl for reviews that explain how they behave at super fast settings etc. Its at the extremes that you start to see character difference VERY specif to a particular comp.

I use all 4 of the main types on bass, drums and vocals regularly So you see the instrument is arbitary, and a personal preference, but if you understand compressors and the differences in stats, design and behavior you will be able to pick the right one for the job easily.

I'm gonna have to stop myself writing now, got to get to bed!

oh yeah, there are also hybrids, like the empirical labs distressor, no tubes, flexible as anything, an amazing bit of kit!

check out-

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed] - No nosense explaination of the above!
http://www.soundpropaganda.com/blog/compression.html - great in depth page on compression