Compromising straight wrists vs. fingers close to fingerboard

[Hachimitsu]

Hello
In the last couple of months I've come back to playing bass after a break of about five years, I played for about six or seven years before that. When I played before I didn't work very much on my technique, I just sort of got by.

Since I started again I have made an effort to learn to play with proper technique. One of the problems I realised I had right away was my fingers going right away from the fingerboard which was making my playing sloppy. So I worked slowly with the ofpf technique and have got to the point where I was happy with my fingers close to the fretboard, at an increasing speed, all over the neck.

So this weekend I happened to be practising in a different space where there is a mirror and I noticed that my wrists were not as straight as I thought they were, especially lower on the neck and on the two thicker strings.

I can adjust my technique to keep my wrist straight, but it is harder to keep my fingers close to the fretboard. I have reasonably long fingers and before I didn't have a problem with the stretch between the first four frets, if I focus on keeping my wrist nice and straight I have to really move my hand along the back of the neck (especially on the e string).

I know everybody comes to a different way of playing, but should I accept that I will have less range/stretch if I want to keep my wrists straight and just work on getting my fingers to stay closer again?

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Nice to see you are aware of your technique, but do not restrict yourself by making your wrists straight all the time.

Yes you will need to bend (Flex) them at times to play certain passages, but then return to keeping them "as straight" as you can when playing passages that do not require as much wrist bend.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Also check out the sticky at the top of this Techniques page, you will see some examples of straighter wrist positions in the videos.

As i said the idea is to be as straight as you can with your wrists, not keep them straight, but have a "default" position that is straight/straighter and easy to use for most of the time, not all of the time

 

[Hachimitsu]

Thanks for your replies.. I liked your comment about keeping a default neutral position and only deviating when you have to.

Yes when I realised I was bending my wrist in order to get full ofpf stretch I spent some time with the 'learning safe left hand technique' video. Now I feel like I need to partially relearn my technique with the slow 1234 and 4321 exercises. It is with the 4321 fretting motion I am finding hard to keep my fingers nice and close to fingerboard with good stretch. Whereas previously I had good stretch and was able to keep my fingers close, but my default position was with a bent wrist.

I will definitely move a mirror into my usual practice space, I didn't realise how useful it would be. I'd recommend to anyone trying to learn good technique to use a mirror

 

[Fergie Fulton]

It takes time to learn and un-learn things, basically we un-learn bad habits which have become default positions of their own, and replace them with better habits.

OFPF is cool but i do not, like many players, use it below the 5th fret, i use a Simandi based technique where my ring and little finger work together.
In videos of me playing you can see space between my middle and ring finger quite clear. All this means is i am using both the Radial and Ulnar sides of the hands as one flowing movement.

Keeping the fingers close to the fretboard is economy of movement, and if you play chords that use all fingers then the economy will be developed, especially if you move between chord shapes.

Or try this simple exercise. All fingers must remain pushing down on the strings during and after changes.

So on the G string at the 7th fret play D, D#, E, F, in running order so all the fingers are now down and fretting a note.
So on the D string at the 7th fret play A, Bb, B, C, in running order by only lifting of the finger needed to fret the note, remember all fingers are to stay down in their original positions till they have to be moved.

So you will play D D# E F then play the 'A' but the other fingers still hold down D# E F and when you lift the middle finger from the D# to play the Bb all the fingers are still down, and when you lift the ring finger from the E to fret the B all the fingers are down and when you lift the little finger from the F to fret the C all the fingers are now down on the D string covering A Bb B C....now the fun begins...play the first part again, but now you have to lift off each finger from the D string, while keeping the other fingers down... to play the G string.
And repeat this loop to develop it, then move the loop/add new strings, but always have all fingers on the fretboard, never away from it.

Its tricky the first few times but it becomes easier as you become accustomed to it.
As you develop it move it about the fretboard, or add more stings

Also use a mirror to check on your posture and see if you are relaxed when you play, or straining.
When i was younger i developed the habit of leaning forward from the neck, so my neck was always under pressure.
But when i learned to sit back, be relaxed and look at the music rather, than stare at it, my problems went away.

Even better is to record yourself...then you can see in context of you playing if you have any bad habits and also reinforce all the good ones.
Any mobile phone with video is good enough for this.

 

[Mushroo]

If you want good advice, post a video or some selfies of your playing technique. Then, instead of abstract discussion, we can give concrete and helpful suggestions.

I think you are over-analyzing it. Technique is about sounding good while protecting your body, not following a strict list of "rules." Go on YouTube and watch videos of top pro players who have had multi-decade careers. Study their technique and "borrow" the best ideas for your own playing.

Generally speaking, I think you are going down the wrong path with your "fingers close to the fretboard" obsession. The only note that matters is the note you are playing. Your entire hand, all your fingers, your thumb, and your wrist, should all be in the best position for the note your are playing right now. Don't obsess over having your hand in the best position for notes you aren't curently playing. So for example, if you are playing F on the 1st fret of the E string, there is absolutely no reason to have your pinky finger at the 4th fret (because you aren't playing a note at the 4th fret, you are playing F at the 1st fret).

Here is an example of the great Duck Dunn playing "Green Onions." Notice that when he is playing the note F, his hand is in the most comfortable position to play the F. And when the time comes to play the note Ab, he transitions his hand to the most comfortable position to play Ab. He doesn't worry about notes he isn't playing!

 

[Fergie Fulton]

If you want good advice, post a video or some selfies of your playing technique. Then, instead of abstract discussion, we can give concrete and helpful suggestions.

I think you are over-analyzing it. Technique is about sounding good while protecting your body, not following a strict list of "rules." Go on YouTube and watch videos of top pro players who have had multi-decade careers. Study their technique and "borrow" the best ideas for your own playing.

Generally speaking, I think you are going down the wrong path with your "fingers close to the fretboard" obsession. The only note that matters is the note you are playing. Your entire hand, all your fingers, your thumb, and your wrist, should all be in the best position for the note your are playing right now. Don't obsess over having your hand in the best position for notes you aren't curently playing. So for example, if you are playing F on the 1st fret of the E string, there is absolutely no reason to have your pinky finger at the 4th fret (because you aren't playing a note at the 4th fret, you are playing F at the 1st fret).

Here is an example of the great Duck Dunn playing "Green Onions." Notice that when he is playing the note F, his hand is in the most comfortable position to play the F. And when the time comes to play the note Ab, he transitions his hand to the most comfortable position to play Ab. He doesn't worry about notes he isn't playing!

Totally agree, and look at Duck....he is just playing, any "proper technique" police would have a field day telling him where he is going wrong.

 

[Malcolm35]

Ditto what Fergie said. On wrist angle I found that if I used the pad of my finger instead of the tip everything about wrist angle just falls into place. As we play one note at a time the pad does what is needed, and also seems to deaden the unused strings. Which is a plus.

After using OFPF for a long time I found that the fingers were deciding which one would get the next note. I let them and now tend to use my index and a slide with some help from the middle finger.

Not saying that is the way just something that developed over time and with what I play worked out for me. My point - OFPF is great to get us started, however, is not cast in stone.

Bent wrists will sooner or later bring lasting pain. There should be no pain in bass, so as Fergie said; "...move if you have to, but, get back to a straight wrist as soon as possible"

Happy trails.

 

[Liam Wald]

Do you wear the bass low-slung? It is really hard to keep your wrist straight if the bass is low.
Some players accept the compromise of what they believe to be looking cool with a low bass over the ease of playing a bass held higher at or above the stomach.

 

[Hachimitsu]

It takes time to learn and un-learn things, basically we un-learn bad habits which have become default positions of their own, and replace them with better habits.

OFPF is cool but i do not, like many players, use it below the 5th fret, i use a Simandi based technique where my ring and little finger work together.
In videos of me playing you can see space between my middle and ring finger quite clear. All this means is i am using both the Radial and Ulnar sides of the hands as one flowing movement.

Keeping the fingers close to the fretboard is economy of movement, and if you play chords that use all fingers then the economy will be developed, especially if you move between chord shapes.

Or try this simple exercise. All fingers must remain pushing down on the strings during and after changes.

So on the G string at the 7th fret play D, D#, E, F, in running order so all the fingers are now down and fretting a note.
So on the D string at the 7th fret play A, Bb, B, C, in running order by only lifting of the finger needed to fret the note, remember all fingers are to stay down in their original positions till they have to be moved.

So you will play D D# E F then play the 'A' but the other fingers still hold down D# E F and when you lift the middle finger from the D# to play the Bb all the fingers are still down, and when you lift the ring finger from the E to fret the B all the fingers are down and when you lift the little finger from the F to fret the C all the fingers are now down on the D string covering A Bb B C....now the fun begins...play the first part again, but now you have to lift off each finger from the D string, while keeping the other fingers down... to play the G string.
And repeat this loop to develop it, then move the loop/add new strings, but always have all fingers on the fretboard, never away from it.

Its tricky the first few times but it becomes easier as you become accustomed to it.
As you develop it move it about the fretboard, or add more stings

Also use a mirror to check on your posture and see if you are relaxed when you play, or straining.
When i was younger i developed the habit of leaning forward from the neck, so my neck was always under pressure.
But when i learned to sit back, be relaxed and look at the music rather, than stare at it, my problems went away.

Even better is to record yourself...then you can see in context of you playing if you have any bad habits and also reinforce all the good ones.
Any mobile phone with video is good enough for this.

Thank you, I will add this to my practice routine..When you do it do you find that your wrist bends naturally as you come to the e string?

If you want good advice, post a video or some selfies of your playing technique. Then, instead of abstract discussion, we can give concrete and helpful suggestions.

I think you are over-analyzing it. Technique is about sounding good while protecting your body, not following a strict list of "rules." Go on YouTube and watch videos of top pro players who have had multi-decade careers. Study their technique and "borrow" the best ideas for your own playing.

Generally speaking, I think you are going down the wrong path with your "fingers close to the fretboard" obsession. The only note that matters is the note you are playing. Your entire hand, all your fingers, your thumb, and your wrist, should all be in the best position for the note your are playing right now. Don't obsess over having your hand in the best position for notes you aren't curently playing. So for example, if you are playing F on the 1st fret of the E string, there is absolutely no reason to have your pinky finger at the 4th fret (because you aren't playing a note at the 4th fret, you are playing F at the 1st fret).

Here is an example of the great Duck Dunn playing "Green Onions." Notice that when he is playing the note F, his hand is in the most comfortable position to play the F. And when the time comes to play the note Ab, he transitions his hand to the most comfortable position to play Ab. He doesn't worry about notes he isn't playing!

thank you. I have always admired duck Dunn's playing. Actually despite the title the issue is more about the reduced range/stretch I have if I am keeping my wrists straight. Yes I may be over analysing it, but I have dealt with tendinitis in my hands/arms before (not bass related) and seen my partner's struggle with chronic tendinitis... So yes as you said it is about keeping yourself safe and not playing by arbitrary 'rules'.

When I get home I will make some videos

 

[SgtHulka]

If you need to overly bend your wrist your strap is too low. Bring your bass up to your upper chest where it should be and your wrist sit straight naturally.

 

[Hachimitsu]

Do you wear the bass low-slung? It is really hard to keep your wrist straight if the bass is low.
Some players accept the compromise of what they believe to be looking cool with a low bass over the ease of playing a bass held higher at or above the stomach.

If you need to overly bend your wrist your strap is too low. Bring your bass up to your upper chest where it should be and your wrist sit straight naturally.

Thank you but that is not the problem, I wear my bass around my stomach, and was able to correct my bent wrists when I noticed the problem in the mirror

 

[SgtHulka]

Thank you but that is not the problem, I wear my bass around my stomach, and was able to correct my bent wrists when I noticed the problem in the mirror

Ok dude.

 

[JimmyM]

If you are not in pain, don't worry about it. The point is to avoid pain.

 

[gln1955]

If you are not in pain, don't worry about it. The point is to avoid pain.

The thing with carpal tunnel syndrome and other repetitive stress injuries is by the time there is pain, the damage is done. It's better to avoid hand postures that are known to increase the risk of RSI's.

 

[Hachimitsu]

If you are not in pain, don't worry about it. The point is to avoid pain.

Hi Jimmy,
I feel like I should provide some context as to why I am asking for advice on my technique. I worked for a while in a market garden but after a year developed tendinitis from repetitive strain. I rested but I had to quit the job and it took months of not just rest but learning about the condition and how to do the correct exercises which help to heal tendons, as solely rest does not always help.

In the end I am happy to have given up manual labour, but even my current job relies on my having some strength/stamina. I also have other creative endeavours apart from playing bass which enrich my life that rely on hand/arm strength.

I feel that a couple of the replies I have received seem to imply I am being silly or am just nitpicking about this, I am sure partly because I didn't articulate clearly enough to begin with and because I didn't post pictures or videos to illustrate.

I know from experience that our bodies can tolerate so much before they begin to show symptoms or disease. That is why I am trying to be proactive in regards to my technique, rather than reactive.

The thing with carpal tunnel syndrome and other repetitive stress injuries is by the time there is pain, the damage is done. It's better to avoid hand postures that are known to increase the risk of RSI's.

A great point, exactly what I am trying to avoid....

 

[JimmyM]

The thing with carpal tunnel syndrome and other repetitive stress injuries is by the time there is pain, the damage is done. It's better to avoid hand postures that are known to increase the risk of RSI's.

Something to always be conscious of, for sure. But my feeling is if there's no pain after regular playing today, then it looks good for tomorrow too.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Thank you, I will add this to my practice routine..When you do it do you find that your wrist bends naturally as you come to the e string?
thank you.

Not as a rule do the bend on the E string on its own, it depends on the line and all the notes involved and what fingers I actually use.
But yes my wrist does flex to accommodate certain notes, but that is movement and motion being used in the arm... it is not a conscious thought anymore as it is now ingrained to be part of how I play.

My wrist also rolls the hand to allow my fingers to play certain runs... but also rolls back. So I would say my wrist not only flexes but also turns to put the hand in a position to allow the fingers to play.

That flex comes from the elbow pushing the forearm back and forwards, not the wrist bending and pulling the forearm.
So my flex is a reaction to what my arm is doing not what my wrist is doing.

 

[Davbassdude]

I applaud your efforts to prevent damage that may compromise your ability to play in the future! My greatest concern is to avoid diabetes-related neuropathy (Type 1 for the past 37 years)!