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Confessions of a Flatwound convert...
- Thread starter Sundogue
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As defender and promoter of the Low End, I realize this thread has gone off course (but not necessarily in a bad way 
).
After further review on the subject of Flats and Rounds, I've found a few more interesting comments to add...
While I agree that rounds are suitable to the task of keeping the low end tight, there are some things about them that, to me, are still inferior to Flats with regards to a tight rhythm section (in Rock music specifically).
Rounds sustain better than Flats - This is very important with regards to a tight rhythm section. Tight rhythm sections require synchronicity between the bass and drums. Sustain is not viewed as a quality here. How long a note rings out can be controlled with proper technique so this should not be an issue, yet there is still some merit to my point favoring Flats.
Flats' sound decays faster than Rounds - This, to me, is one of the single greatest strengths of Flats in a tight rhythm section. This decay contributes to their more 'percussive' quality. This is one area where Flats greatly outdo Rounds. Because each note cuts out quicker, it matches the drums natural decay better, even without having to use technique to control it.
Rounds have more harmonics and overtones/noise - This is one area where many prefer using roundwounds. It is also where Rounds excel at giving 'bass players' more freedom of expression in the area of the guitars. Combined with more sustain, it is easier to obtain that growly sound as the windings produce more 'bite', and with less fundamental but more harmonics, 'bass players' can do more chordal work and more soloing, use more effects (to a greater affect) and it opens the possibilities for more variety in tonal quality, without things getting too muddy. Not a bad thing for those who like wanking and playing chords. But not a good thing for a very tight rhythm section, unless a lot of control is used along with great technique.
Flats have a stronger fundamental with less harmonics, overtones and no noise - Flats produce a nice, fat, deep 'thud' or 'thump' that is so interconnected with the drums. Each note is felt more strongly than a roundwound string at the same volume. With less harmonics, there is less extraneous sound produced to muddy up the low end or compete with guitars. Flats strength in this area is to produce a strong note that ties in with the drums.
Rounds have a piano like ring and clarity - There is no question that Rounds give a sheen to the notes that is very melodic. But again, I am talking about strings and how they relate to a tight rhythm section, so why would one use a melodic sounding string to help tighten the rhythm section?
Flats have a distinct percussive clarity, more akin to a xylophone than the piano - Probably the main reason I prefer Flats to Rounds for a tight rhythm section in Rock music is this quality. Every note produced by a bass using Flats has a distinct attack that is so much more closely related to the drums in a stringed instrument. Rather than having that melodic quality of a roundwound, Flats produce a more rhythmic, percussive sound that keeps it tightly within the rhythm section. This is what allows other instruments to play over the top clearly without a competition between guitars and bass for sonic space.
I do believe that Flats are better for a tighter rhythm section than Rounds. They simply fit better with what the drums are doing and keep the bass staying back in the low end of the rhythm section, preventing potential competition with guitars and other mid-ranged instruments.
Now,of course if one wants to play more chords, more open melodic bass lines, solos...or just wants their bass to be more of a low end guitar then there is no doubt Rounds will excel better than Flats for that.
Both types of strings serve their purpose. If one looks back at the history of bass strings, roundwounds came about due to the demand of bass players wanting to do more with their instrument than just playing 'bass'. Entwistle comes to mind with his desire to play the bass 'guitar' as a low end guitar (his words, not mine). This also came at a time where the technology of bass amplification was nowhere near what it is now. Bass players wanted to be heard and with rounds' clarity, and sustain those strings fulfilled a specific purpose, and still do to this day.
But, with the advancement of bass amplification, onboard preamps, active basses, etc. as well as string making technology, Flatwounds no longer need to sound like some worn out rubber band on a washtub bass. Flats today just give a rock band's rhythm section more balls, more thunder and yet still are bright enough to give each low end note very distinct attack and definition. Played with a pick, that attack is even stronger.
Of course, this isn't to say one can't have a tight rhythm section playing with roundwounds...far from it. I've spent the better part of 30 years doing just that. However, Flats will make for a stronger, tighter, more powerful rhythm section...all else being equal. It's just a matter of where one's priorities lie.
Just my opinion.
).After further review on the subject of Flats and Rounds, I've found a few more interesting comments to add...
While I agree that rounds are suitable to the task of keeping the low end tight, there are some things about them that, to me, are still inferior to Flats with regards to a tight rhythm section (in Rock music specifically).
Rounds sustain better than Flats - This is very important with regards to a tight rhythm section. Tight rhythm sections require synchronicity between the bass and drums. Sustain is not viewed as a quality here. How long a note rings out can be controlled with proper technique so this should not be an issue, yet there is still some merit to my point favoring Flats.
Flats' sound decays faster than Rounds - This, to me, is one of the single greatest strengths of Flats in a tight rhythm section. This decay contributes to their more 'percussive' quality. This is one area where Flats greatly outdo Rounds. Because each note cuts out quicker, it matches the drums natural decay better, even without having to use technique to control it.
Rounds have more harmonics and overtones/noise - This is one area where many prefer using roundwounds. It is also where Rounds excel at giving 'bass players' more freedom of expression in the area of the guitars. Combined with more sustain, it is easier to obtain that growly sound as the windings produce more 'bite', and with less fundamental but more harmonics, 'bass players' can do more chordal work and more soloing, use more effects (to a greater affect) and it opens the possibilities for more variety in tonal quality, without things getting too muddy. Not a bad thing for those who like wanking and playing chords. But not a good thing for a very tight rhythm section, unless a lot of control is used along with great technique.
Flats have a stronger fundamental with less harmonics, overtones and no noise - Flats produce a nice, fat, deep 'thud' or 'thump' that is so interconnected with the drums. Each note is felt more strongly than a roundwound string at the same volume. With less harmonics, there is less extraneous sound produced to muddy up the low end or compete with guitars. Flats strength in this area is to produce a strong note that ties in with the drums.
Rounds have a piano like ring and clarity - There is no question that Rounds give a sheen to the notes that is very melodic. But again, I am talking about strings and how they relate to a tight rhythm section, so why would one use a melodic sounding string to help tighten the rhythm section?
Flats have a distinct percussive clarity, more akin to a xylophone than the piano - Probably the main reason I prefer Flats to Rounds for a tight rhythm section in Rock music is this quality. Every note produced by a bass using Flats has a distinct attack that is so much more closely related to the drums in a stringed instrument. Rather than having that melodic quality of a roundwound, Flats produce a more rhythmic, percussive sound that keeps it tightly within the rhythm section. This is what allows other instruments to play over the top clearly without a competition between guitars and bass for sonic space.
I do believe that Flats are better for a tighter rhythm section than Rounds. They simply fit better with what the drums are doing and keep the bass staying back in the low end of the rhythm section, preventing potential competition with guitars and other mid-ranged instruments.
Now,of course if one wants to play more chords, more open melodic bass lines, solos...or just wants their bass to be more of a low end guitar then there is no doubt Rounds will excel better than Flats for that.
Both types of strings serve their purpose. If one looks back at the history of bass strings, roundwounds came about due to the demand of bass players wanting to do more with their instrument than just playing 'bass'. Entwistle comes to mind with his desire to play the bass 'guitar' as a low end guitar (his words, not mine). This also came at a time where the technology of bass amplification was nowhere near what it is now. Bass players wanted to be heard and with rounds' clarity, and sustain those strings fulfilled a specific purpose, and still do to this day.
But, with the advancement of bass amplification, onboard preamps, active basses, etc. as well as string making technology, Flatwounds no longer need to sound like some worn out rubber band on a washtub bass. Flats today just give a rock band's rhythm section more balls, more thunder and yet still are bright enough to give each low end note very distinct attack and definition. Played with a pick, that attack is even stronger.
Of course, this isn't to say one can't have a tight rhythm section playing with roundwounds...far from it. I've spent the better part of 30 years doing just that. However, Flats will make for a stronger, tighter, more powerful rhythm section...all else being equal. It's just a matter of where one's priorities lie.
Just my opinion.
Well written posts in this thread, Sundogue. I agree with virtually everything you say here, it's all my experience too.
About the faster decay - isn't that a step closer to the upright sound? Uprights groove..
I hope music stores starts keeping more flats in stock. In my town, you have to order a set if you want one. Anyway with the number of threads here about flats, I think flats are seeing a strong revival these days.
Flats are also remarkably cheap to use, as you can use the same set for ages. I just hope not every bassist start using flats, because the string makers need people that changes strings on their instruments to keep up their business. Otherwise, the price on flats will go up remarkably...
About the faster decay - isn't that a step closer to the upright sound? Uprights groove..
I hope music stores starts keeping more flats in stock. In my town, you have to order a set if you want one. Anyway with the number of threads here about flats, I think flats are seeing a strong revival these days.
Flats are also remarkably cheap to use, as you can use the same set for ages. I just hope not every bassist start using flats, because the string makers need people that changes strings on their instruments to keep up their business. Otherwise, the price on flats will go up remarkably...
Yeah I've got flats on most of my basses, but some (like my Rickenbackers) seem to sound too good with rounds to ever change.
Hey, I still really dig a Ric with bright, clanky roundwounds.
If I still had a Ric and was doing some prog rock or Yes covers, I'd be all over that! One of my all-time favorite sounds.
Well, the influential pressure of this thread pushed me over the edge. I recently purchased a Warwick Corvette $$ and the strings it came with were dead. I just replaced them with Lo-Riders last week. However, I had thought about going for the flats when I was picking up the Lo-Riders. Don't get me wrong, the Lo-Riders are the berries and they made the bass sound worlds better than it did with the stock strings, but I was interested in this whold "flat" business. So I dropped a half a c-note on a set of La Bella Deep Talkin' Flats and strung them up last night. I haven't had a chance to do anything other than a quick bedroom test, and I probably won't have shot with a full band for another week or so.
My first impression was that they were super nice to play on. The tactile sensation is great, and that combined with the $$'s nicest-neck-i've-ever-played factor makes it super hard for me to put the bass down. I messed around with a few different EQ settings and cabinet choices (115 vs 212). I also messed around with the preamp/bypass switch on my bass, along with the overwhelming combination of pickup settings. I was able to find quite a few that were very pleasant. I did find that there was a high end to the strings that I needed to dial out. I liked them best when the highs were rolled way back and the bass was boosted. I found the percussive nature of the strings made them quite articulate in the lower registers.
The flats don't sound as exciting to play solo as the Lo-Riders do. The Lo-Riders are steel roundwounds and they have a dark sound but still growl like mad, particularly on the $$. I think the discussion about flats having a better fit with a band setting is what I'm after. I'll give them some time to stretch and get rid of that new-string brightness and see what things are like with the full band.
My first impression was that they were super nice to play on. The tactile sensation is great, and that combined with the $$'s nicest-neck-i've-ever-played factor makes it super hard for me to put the bass down. I messed around with a few different EQ settings and cabinet choices (115 vs 212). I also messed around with the preamp/bypass switch on my bass, along with the overwhelming combination of pickup settings. I was able to find quite a few that were very pleasant. I did find that there was a high end to the strings that I needed to dial out. I liked them best when the highs were rolled way back and the bass was boosted. I found the percussive nature of the strings made them quite articulate in the lower registers.
The flats don't sound as exciting to play solo as the Lo-Riders do. The Lo-Riders are steel roundwounds and they have a dark sound but still growl like mad, particularly on the $$. I think the discussion about flats having a better fit with a band setting is what I'm after. I'll give them some time to stretch and get rid of that new-string brightness and see what things are like with the full band.
Another thing that makes Flats better in a band situation is that because of the stronger fundamental and faster decay, one can boost the lows and lo-mids without adding ANY boominess to the overall sound.
The bass just fills out the low end fully, without creating a stage EQ'ing nightmare.
The bass just fills out the low end fully, without creating a stage EQ'ing nightmare.
Yeah, I got that impression from my quiet, late night test run. It felt like I could ramp up the bass without things getting boomy, then I noticed I had started to shake the walls and the shelves... ooops, sorry neighbors.
I tried flats on a Spector Euro5LX and on a Fender Precision. I loved 'em at first, but I missed the sustain too much. Then I went back to rounds and learned that I missed the thump, as the OP explains very well. A solution to getting the thump out of rounds is to play using a pick with palm muting right over the string saddles. It's not exactly the same as flats, but it work quite well. Of course, flats still have no finger noise and you don't have to use a pick and mute to get that thump. While I'm very happy with rounds (DR Nickel Lo-Riders) on the Spector, I still think about go back to flats on the P-bass. We musicians are so fickle!!!
I listened to all of them. Even for "Slap", I prefer the sound of the flats. YMMV
I've done the exact same 'muting' thing when I was using rounds. The only problem I have with it is I have to be very concious of doing that. While I'm not the wildest bass player onstage, I really get into the music and the crowd (wireless freedom and all) and I'm not always standing there making sure my technique is sound.
But yes, palm muting brings out more fundamental with rounds...but think of what it then does with flats! I prefer playing with a pick these days. I can play equally well with either a pick or fingers, but when I played rounds with fingers, my strings had to be fresh or it just wasn't cutting it. With a pick my rounds could be old and still sound good. But with flats I don't even worry much about it any more.
Sun-
I had a moment of clarity when I put flats on my P bass. So THIS is what I'm supposed to sound like!! Helped me find my 'voice' on the electric bass.
Doesn't work for everyone, but it sure works for me.
I had a moment of clarity when I put flats on my P bass. So THIS is what I'm supposed to sound like!! Helped me find my 'voice' on the electric bass.
Doesn't work for everyone, but it sure works for me.
Thanks for that link. THAT is absolute proof of what I've been talking about.
I've listened to it very carefully over and over. I've come to the same conclusion...by itself, the bass sounds better with rounds (subjective opinion), but when the whole band comes in, the low end sounds fuller with flats and whatever one gains in tone with rounds is just lost in the mix.
I even listened to all the other musical styles as well. In every case the bass sounded fuller with Flats than Rounds. The only advantage I see is when the bass is the most prominent instrument in the mix. That is seldom the case in the real world, unless the band is subservient to the bass player...as in, the band is there to support the "monster" bass player and he/she is the star.
I hear the same thing with some of my favorite bands, including Yes. While Squire's bass has that roundwound snarl, most of the time you can't tell if he's using rounds or flats with the whole band playing. You can when he's playing alone or with other instruments being minimal in the mix, but not the whole band playing. Again, not something that is typical.
Listen to any Zeppelin. There has been so much debate whether JPJ played with rounds or flats, even after he's said in interviews that he switched to rounds fairly early on. Say what? Can't tell the difference? Some can I'm sure.
My point is, since flats make the low end fuller and the rhythm section sound tighter and more cohesive, why would anyone want to use rounds unless it was more about soloing or they were more concerned with their own sound than the whole band's sound?
I'd also like to say, that with this clip, the rounds seem to get lost with the band, however, the flats stay there.
I'm seriously contemplating sticking a set of TI's on my fretted P Bass, and leaving them until they break, but, I do slap ocassionally. Guess I'll have to try flats out at rehearsal with the band...
I guess I am going to be the minority opinion here...
I like flats. I've used them before, and love the sound of chromes on a P bass or a J bass, even the S.U.B. Mm copy I had for a while sounded great with flats
But I've never had any problems locking in with a drummer and providing the deep, tight low end that is so characteristic of flats with rounds. I love the fundamental, and having the bass just kick you in your chest, to make the groove the most important thing and not solo/wank off trying to showcase my abilities as a player, but I only have one bass right now, and it has rounds on it. I find it is alot more versitile than flats (there is a tone knob on my bass
) and I can cover everything flats do to my sound and then also get the classic trebly, grindy harmonic roundwound tone.
I think I'm going to give TI flats a try sometime soon, but I'm perfectly happy with my Sunbeams.
Just my two cents
I like flats. I've used them before, and love the sound of chromes on a P bass or a J bass, even the S.U.B. Mm copy I had for a while sounded great with flats
But I've never had any problems locking in with a drummer and providing the deep, tight low end that is so characteristic of flats with rounds. I love the fundamental, and having the bass just kick you in your chest, to make the groove the most important thing and not solo/wank off trying to showcase my abilities as a player, but I only have one bass right now, and it has rounds on it. I find it is alot more versitile than flats (there is a tone knob on my bass
) and I can cover everything flats do to my sound and then also get the classic trebly, grindy harmonic roundwound tone.I think I'm going to give TI flats a try sometime soon, but I'm perfectly happy with my Sunbeams.
Just my two cents
While I have really no idea how other flats compare, the TI's I have on my bass are about as roundwound (bright) as I would think a flatwound string could get.
As others have said TI's are just a different kind of flat. Very bright in the mid/upper mids (yet still very full in the lows). And they stay that way forever (mine are over two years old and have been on and off many basses in that time and they are still bright).
Of course I say that now, having just ordered a 5 string set of D'Addario Chromes on Monday (I needed a 5 string set as my bass has a 4 string set of TI's with some brand of roundwound low B). If the Chromes don't do it for me, I'll get a single low B of the TI's and put the TI's back on, because the TI's are great sounding, though a tad bit too low in tension for my liking.
You'll probably like the Chromes, closer to TI's than other flats, and a bit higher tension.
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