Double Bass Counting Rhythms

[rgarcia26]

I am interesting on knowing if you guys count while reading music? what is your personal technique, I have being studying different materials, and I fond out different opinions:

Some say:

1-Only count the beat at loud only 1, 2, 3, 4

2-Count at loud, and subdivide but always say the beat.

3-Count at loud, but only say the notes that are being playing.

I found that counting white reading help tremendously my timing while I am playing in an assemble, instead of relaying only in a metronome, I know there is not one side fit all, but there is any advantage of a particular technique over another, and is there another technique that may help me also?

Thanks guys Ruben

 

[Lee Moses]

Personally, I don't count out loud but I do count internally. I always count 1,2,3,4 (assuming that you're talking 4/4, but whatever the beat is). And I may count subdivisions based on what subdivisions are on the page. Otherwise, I will pretty much say where the attack of a note falls. Also, if I have been in a section with quarter notes, half notes, etc., and see that I am about to go into a section with 16th notes, I will start subdividing a measure or two ahead, "1-e-an-duh, 2-e-an-duh," etc. to prepare myself.

 

[rgarcia26]

Personally, I don't count out loud but I do count internally. I always count 1,2,3,4 (assuming that you're talking 4/4, but whatever the beat is). And I may count subdivisions based on what subdivisions are on the page. Otherwise, I will pretty much say where the attack of a note falls. Also, if I have been in a section with quarter notes, half notes, etc., and see that I am about to go into a section with 16th notes, I will start subdividing a measure or two ahead, "1-e-an-duh, 2-e-an-duh," etc. to prepare myself.

I am an amateur so it helps count at loud, but when I play in an assemble I count more internally, I think that I suffer from ADD so its hard for me to keep track where I am, but counting helps a lot.

Thanks for the inside!

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I think it's all about awareness of the beat and the subdivisions. External helpers (metronomes, drum apps, heck, even drummers) are great for helping us to focus, but in the end we need to be headed toward internalizing these things. Many people believe (and I agree with them) that externalizing these aspects is a reasonable path to internalizing as long as you keep the long term goal in mind. Practicing slowly to hear the overall rhythmic framework is also a great help. I've been reading through the Mozart piano sonatas this year, one movement a day, to try to get back some piano chops. Usually, I'll set the metronome on 8th =80 or 90 so that I can get everything both aurally and technically. I find that this kind of slow practice really builds up the mental matrix of rhythm and subdivision relationships - often while reading faster, I tend to fake a lot more, but at this tempo there's no excuse not to really try to nail everything.

 

[Don Kasper]

A good resource for practicing "rhythmic reading", is the book "Modern Reading Text in 4/4" by Louis Bellson. This book is a great way to begin to recognize and internalize written rhythms - it is best used "away from your instrument", ("singing" is my preferred method), as a way to isolate the rhythmic component of written music. It contains NO Melodies, only Rhythmic patterns on one note!
It is a good example of isolating an area of study by limiting, (and thus focusing), your attention - in this case, on just the rhythm, (not the "notes"), of written music.

Invalid Link Removed

Finally, a former Music Theory teacher of mine, (Allen Sapp), once described Rhythm as "The Clasping of Time"...
Thanks.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Do you clasp on one and three or two and four?

 

[Don Kasper]

Do you clasp on one and three or two and four?

As a Male/Caucasian, I am genetically predisposed to Clasp on 1&3. After many years of study, (and hanging out), I now am able to Clasp on 2&4!
Getting a Teacher can help.
Best of Luck in your Quest!
Remember Ed, It's "One Measure At A Time".
Thanks.

 

[rgarcia26]

I think it's all about awareness of the beat and the subdivisions. External helpers (metronomes, drum apps, heck, even drummers) are great for helping us to focus, but in the end we need to be headed toward internalizing these things. Many people believe (and I agree with them) that externalizing these aspects is a reasonable path to internalizing as long as you keep the long term goal in mind. Practicing slowly to hear the overall rhythmic framework is also a great help. I've been reading through the Mozart piano sonatas this year, one movement a day, to try to get back some piano chops. Usually, I'll set the metronome on 8th =80 or 90 so that I can get everything both aurally and technically. I find that this kind of slow practice really builds up the mental matrix of rhythm and subdivision relationships - often while reading faster, I tend to fake a lot more, but at this tempo there's no excuse not to really try to nail everything.

I agreed with you when I started my studies I only practice with metronomes, but my timing wasn't improving a lot, and at times I was getting lost too often while playing with orders, now I take few measurements to synch with the band leader, and I keep counting during the song, that is making me more consistent, I was a little sock when I find that counting can be very accurate, and time should be coming from you and not relying on others for it.

 

[rgarcia26]

Do you clasp on one and three or two and four?

That's another good point, me being an amateur I count all the beats, It seems like It's not the optimal methodology.

 

[ctrlzjones]

If you make a comparison to reading textbooks (not the same thing, but maybe interesting enough) …

You do not really work with your consciousness, you do not analyze the text (assuming that you are not into semiotics); but rather fishing in your knowledge to make a connection between all these weird symbols on the paper and your fragmented memories, all coming together in one moment.

So yes, counting helps for figuring things out, get an understanding so that they get into your knowledge base with ease.
But when it comes to (sight)reading I think it is better to let go the analytical parts of the process and let your body take and the inner self (e.g. unconsciousness) take over. Even more in Jazz. There is a very interesting book by Mike Longo, who is talking about swing. It is not coming from a 'triplet feel' of dotted eights. It is the accents as a result from polyrhythmical piles of different meters, as he very eloquently explaines here:



I hope there are no copyright issues with that; it is clearly meant for being educational, and in my master thesis (that was before the digital days) I had a lot of these citations using them to make my points clear ...

 

[peterpalmieri]

Seems to me you are rushing that 4th 16th note. I have always said one-e-an-uh or one-e-and-uh at slower tempos NOT one-e-an-duh. Maybe I've been behind on that 4th 16th all this time.

*I meant to quote Lee Moses

 

[Lee Moses]

Seems to me you are rushing that 4th 16th note. I have always said one-e-an-uh or one-e-and-uh at slower tempos NOT one-e-an-duh. Maybe I've been behind on that 4th 16th all this time.

*I meant to quote Lee Moses

I'm not sure I follow what you're saying. Yes, I suppose at faster tempos it comes out more like "1-e-an-uh." The reason I say "1-e-an-duh" rather than "1-e-and-uh" is because the first makes for an even 1-consonant-and-1-vowel sound per note, while the latter makes that 3rd note a longer and more difficult syllable.

Now tell me this--Why would anyone be rushing notes based on what syllable they say for a note?

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Now tell me this--Why would anyone be rushing notes based on what syllable they say for a note?

Because their time sucks.

 

[peterpalmieri]

I was only joking that you'd be rushing or I'd be behind, sorry if it didn't come across properly.

That being said moving the D from "1-e-and-uh" to "1-e-an-duh" seems different accenting that 4th note. I 've always thought "1-e-an-uh" which seems to avoid that.

 

[peterpalmieri]

ctrlzjones and ed fuqua,

I was attempting to ask what I thought was a valid question in the context of how we think about if not verbalize a subdivision. I will apologize to both of you and Lee.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

No worries, I was just trine to be funny....

 

[Lee Moses]

I was only joking that you'd be rushing or I'd be behind, sorry if it didn't come across properly.

Ah, okay. No, I didn't catch the "joke" tone of your voice.

That being said moving the D from "1-e-and-uh" to "1-e-an-duh" seems different accenting that 4th note. I 've always thought "1-e-an-uh" which seems to avoid that.

I don't know about that. You're probably thinking an accent when you read it because it stands it as different from what you're used to. I don't think I typically accent that note because of it.

I will apologize to both of you and Lee.

No apologies necessary to me. I like funny. I just take a little explaining to sometimes, that's all.

 

[Don Kasper]

I am interesting on knowing if you guys count while reading music? what is your personal technique, I have being studying different materials, and I fond out different opinions:

Some say:
1-Only count the beat at loud only 1, 2, 3, 4
2-Count at loud, and subdivide but always say the beat.
3-Count at loud, but only say the notes that are being playing.
I found that counting white reading help tremendously my timing while I am playing in an assemble, instead of relaying only in a metronome, I know there is not one side fit all, but there is any advantage of a particular technique over another, and is there another technique that may help me also?

Thanks guys Ruben

Ruben,
Your original question brought 2 things to mind:

1. I would encourage you to NOT count out loud, but DO count silently to yourself - ( it's OK to lightly tap 1234, with your toes/foot, if that helps internalize the pulse). If you've not tried this before, try it away from your instrument - just practice a section of written music, counting silently, while clapping or singing the rhythms - ( don't worry about pitches at this point). The book I referenced earlier, Modern Reading Text, begins with just quarter and eighth notes and rests in various combinations. You'll begin seeing how downbeats and upbeats look "on paper", and how they feel against your internal counting and "pulse". It also trains your eyes to be reading slightly "ahead", while you process/play what was read a fraction of a second before. (The rule is, if your looking at beat #1 ON beat #1, you're already "late" and not playing accurate rhythm).

2. I would encourage you to then practice rhythm as a purely aural/physical experience, by playing/clapping/singing improvised or memorized (non-written) rhythms with a metronome accompanying you - to help develop an awareness of, and a connection to, time and rhythm that is occurring externally, outside of you.
You want to be able to organically/unconsciously(?) "synchronize" your internal pulse (and rhythms), with the external pulse (and rhythms), that you are hearing/feeling around you - whether it's a metronome, drummer, garage band, Symphony Orchestra, Elvin Jones, etc.,.......
FYI - in my opinion, this is a lifelong process.

Thanks for your time (!).

 

[Tom Lane]

2. I would encourage you to then practice rhythm as a purely aural/physical experience, by playing/clapping/singing improvised or memorized (non-written) rhythms with a metronome accompanying you - to help develop an awareness of, and a connection to, time and rhythm that is occurring externally, outside of you.

Don reminded me of a skill one of my teachers taught me about rhythm. I think he called it *constant clapping*. To do it, you tap your right hand on the down beat and the left hand on the up beat, or vice-versa, if you prefer. Both hands never stop tapping on their down or up beats, but you tap harder when a note is to be played.
Try it on a simple pattern like a basic bossa, & 1 - - & 3 - - for an hour against a metronome playing on one, and I think you'll have that rhythm ingrained in you for life. I still use this for rhythms that I'm not rock solid on.
I've been told that I have good time, but this exercise along with playing with metronomes on every 2nd or 4th measure really helped me lock in my sense of time.

 

[Don Kasper]

No worries, I was just trine to be funny....

OT -
“Gutta cavat lapidem, non vi, sed saepe cadendo."

You may want to see a Urologist about this, Ed.
Thanks.