Crate B200XL is quiet - Can I fix it?

[thundernoob]

Hi all, I bought an old 500W Crate B200XL with a 2x15 cabinet off of Marketplace and the guy assured me it was PLENTY loud for gigging around my area. Yeah, I should have tested it before buying but it was $150 and he was the weird type of guy who thinks everyone that comes to buy something from him is his new friend who wants to be in a band with him so I really just wanted to leave (still took over 30 minutes of him talking).

Anyways, I met up with some guys forming a deathcore band and I brought it with, but I have to absolutely CRANK it to get volume out of it and we're practicing in a shed that's so small that I don't think we could fit a 2nd guitarist. I wheeled it into my living room the other day to dink around with it and make sure I'm not going crazy, but sure enough the output just isn't there. I honestly don't think it puts out more juice than my 100W BA115 Ampeg combo amp from the 90's. If I so much as think about going past noon on the master (which I have to because anything below 8 is practically meek in output), the limit light starts to indicate even when the gain is turned down nearly all the way and it starts popping/farting out, and even just going completely quiet if I'm hammering the strings which I do for a few parts of a song). I have the EQ flat on the amp and scooped on my bass, but it doesn't change if I go flat on my bass and scoop it on the amp. I don't hit the limit as much when I run it flat on both, but then I lose all of the super heavy low end that sounds great in the context of the genre they play in.

I don't know if it matters but the amp has two outputs and the cab has two inputs. The problem is the same whether I'm running just one or both output/inputs.

I'm probably just going to cut my loss and try to find a new amp and cabinet but thought I'd ask here just in case there is anything I can do to attempt to fix it before I go dropping cash that I don't have yet to make it through some initial gigs.

Any insight is appreciated, I literally have no idea what I'm doing with this stuff whatsoever.

 

[MIMike]

I’m not sure where you got the idea that it was a 500 W amp. With your 2x15 cab, which is probably 4 Ohm, the max you will get from that is 200 W. Now, 200 watts may be enough for lots of gigs, but clearly not enough for yours.

 

[thundernoob]

I’m not sure where you got the idea that it was a 500 W amp. With your 2x15 cab, which is probably 4 Ohm, the max you will get from that is 200 W. Now, 200 watts may be enough for lots of gigs, but clearly not enough for yours.

Ahh, yeah you're right. It says 500W Max on the part with the power ratings but 200W RMS @ 4 Ohms at the outputs, so I guess that's the problem. I've been looking at the BQ500 because it's super cheap and people said it is "LOUD", but now I'm skeptical that I won't run into the same issue I currently have. Honestly though I don't know how this rig could be enough for any gig, I was expecting it would sound really loud in my living room and it really didn't. No idea how anyone would use it at a small venue

 

[agedhorse]

This is the usual result of super cheap…

 

[thundernoob]

This is the usual result of super cheap…

I know. I'm a poor. The kids need braces

 

[klattman]

I had an old bx100. The amp died multiple times. I ripped the amp section out and wired the speaker to a jack and used a cheap GK head and got several more years out of it.

If the cab can take it I’d try tossing the amp section and getting a cheap 3-500 W head somewhere to try with correct ohm matching.

The speakers in the old crates weren’t that good to begin with so you may be out of luck.

 

[InkCow]

If the cab can take it I’d try tossing the amp section and getting a cheap 3-500 W head somewhere to try with correct ohm matching.

I don’t think this is a good idea: depending on which Crate 215 it is (BE or BX, assuming the latter, given the head), it’s rated at either 200w or 300w.

If the cab is kept, the best bet would something like Peavey Mark IV or a Hartke HA2500. The former can go down to two ohms, which gives the option to make up for the lower power rating with more speakers.

But, doesn’t seem like the cab is really working out for OP, anyway, so this may all be academic.

 

[InkCow]

Also, in the meantime, put the graphic eq into more of a frowny shape and consider adding an overdrive to boost the mids. Might at least help to make yourself heard.

 

[S-Bigbottom]

Are you using a Speaker Cable? It will say on the cable Shielded Instrument or Speaker Cable. Though they look the same, they are very different inside.

Put a cable into the Effects Loop In and Out linking them together and play.

If those do not work, try the head with a known good cab. That cab could be wired all wonky or blown.

 

[Zooberwerx]

Hi all, I bought an old 500W Crate B200XL with a 2x15 cabinet off of Marketplace and the guy assured me it was PLENTY loud for gigging around my area. Yeah, I should have tested it before buying but it was $150 and he was the weird type of guy who thinks everyone that comes to buy something from him is his new friend who wants to be in a band with him so I really just wanted to leave (still took over 30 minutes of him talking).

Anyways, I met up with some guys forming a deathcore band and I brought it with, but I have to absolutely CRANK it to get volume out of it and we're practicing in a shed that's so small that I don't think we could fit a 2nd guitarist. I wheeled it into my living room the other day to dink around with it and make sure I'm not going crazy, but sure enough the output just isn't there. I honestly don't think it puts out more juice than my 100W BA115 Ampeg combo amp from the 90's. If I so much as think about going past noon on the master (which I have to because anything below 8 is practically meek in output), the limit light starts to indicate even when the gain is turned down nearly all the way and it starts popping/farting out, and even just going completely quiet if I'm hammering the strings which I do for a few parts of a song). I have the EQ flat on the amp and scooped on my bass, but it doesn't change if I go flat on my bass and scoop it on the amp. I don't hit the limit as much when I run it flat on both, but then I lose all of the super heavy low end that sounds great in the context of the genre they play in.

I don't know if it matters but the amp has two outputs and the cab has two inputs. The problem is the same whether I'm running just one or both output/inputs.

I'm probably just going to cut my loss and try to find a new amp and cabinet but thought I'd ask here just in case there is anything I can do to attempt to fix it before I go dropping cash that I don't have yet to make it through some initial gigs.

Any insight is appreciated, I literally have no idea what I'm doing with this stuff whatsoever.

Welcome to TB...don't forget to complete your profile and spring for a supporting membership.

Where do you reside in VA? It's a big state.

Riis

 

[thundernoob]

Are you using a Speaker Cable? It will say on the cable Shielded Instrument or Speaker Cable. Though they look the same, they are very different inside.

Put a cable into the Effects Loop In and Out linking them together and play.

If those do not work, try the head with a known good cab. That cab could be wired all wonky or blown.

I did manage to make sure I was using a speaker cable instead of an instrument cable, so there is that

I had to limp thru another practice session with it again this weekend and I'm pretty much done with it Might keep it to experiment with, but most likely I'll list it for pennies saying that it's mostly junk that needs fixing.

I'm not real liquid right now, but I had enough for a TC Electronics BQ500 (mostly very positive reviews, if nothing else it can be a ready backup if I go with something of better quality down the road), a SpeakON cable, and a Fender Rumble 410 on an installment plan. The Rumble is 8 ohm, so that gives me room to expand if I still need more output once we start landing gigs (we're hoping to have a set list tight and practiced by mid-late spring). Hopefully I don't miss the thunderous lows of 15"'s too much, but if I do I'll add one after I make some gig money to reinvest in my gear.

 

[thundernoob]

Welcome to TB...don't forget to complete your profile and spring for a supporting membership.

Where do you reside in VA? It's a big state.

Riis

Thank you! I'm in Stuarts Draft which is just south of where 81 and 64 meet up

 

[ninjatanzen]

I don't know if it matters but the amp has two outputs and the cab has two inputs. The problem is the same whether I'm running just one or both output/inputs.

I'm checking on this part. Does the cab have separate inputs for each speaker, or are the inputs in parallel or series for the whole cab? Someone else can weigh in here, but I don't think it's proper to run both amp outputs to one cab.

 

[agedhorse]

Never run both outputs to a single cabinet unless the cabinet was designed to be split (like a very few specific models).

 

[thundernoob]

I'm checking on this part. Does the cab have separate inputs for each speaker, or are the inputs in parallel or series for the whole cab? Someone else can weigh in here, but I don't think it's proper to run both amp outputs to one cab.

Hard to say. There isn't any indication on the cab if they are independent inputs to the twin speakers if they are in parallel. I ran it the first practice session with just 1 cable but it was so quiet that I thought perhaps I was only powering 1 speaker. But when I ran them both, I didn't notice an appreciable difference in output

 

[Zooberwerx]

Everything is wired in parallel: single cable amp > speaker enclosure.

Litmus test: insert a speaker cable in the enclosure. At the opposite end, jam a 9v battery against the tip (+) and sleeve (-)...both drivers should lurch forward with a percussive "pop".

Riis

 

[agedhorse]

Yes, the jacks are wired in parallel.

If you happen to use both outputs on an amp to the parallel input jacks AND the amp is in fact a dual output (2 power amp channels) amp, you will likely damage the amp.

 

[ninjatanzen]

Hard to say. There isn't any indication on the cab if they are independent inputs to the twin speakers if they are in parallel. I ran it the first practice session with just 1 cable but it was so quiet that I thought perhaps I was only powering 1 speaker. But when I ran them both, I didn't notice an appreciable difference in output

Most cabs will be single input at a time (regardless of how many jacks are on it). If it doesn't specify otherwise, I wouldn't hook more than one cable from the head to the amp. There are cabs that can daisy chain, have dual inputs (ie; Ampeg SVT810), etc. but they are labeled and designed as such.

As agedhorse mentioned, hooking two cables from your head to this cab will not gain you anything, but can very well destroy your gear.

In the future, doing what Zooberwerx mentioned with the 9V battery is a great test. It can show if all drivers are wired to that input (they all move) and if they all move in the same direction at once (wired correctly vs reversing polarity on one or more speakers).

You mentioned a BQ500 with a Rumble 410, and possibly an addition 15 down the road. The BQ500 only has one output, so you would only be running 1 cab with that. The BQ500 with a Rumble410 will likely be much more capable than your current setup, so it may not be an issue of needing 2 cabs. I am of personal belief that a 15 doesn't necessarily have more low end than a 10, rather it depends on the speakers/cab design.

 

[thundernoob]

Thanks for all the knowledge, guys! It is very much appreciated

 

[Guitalia]

One way to make the best of what sounds like a bad situation: turn down the bass control on the amp. Or, as a previous poster said, set the EQ sliders in a frowny face.

The low frequencies soak up most of the amp's power. With more power on tap from cutting the lows, the mids will project better and the amp will sound much louder. Maybe add a little distortion. It's fun having bowel-churning lows, but its unnecessary.

Especially if you play venues with a massive sound system and an FOH engineer, who's going to roll your signal off below 80 Hz or thereabouts anyway.

(BTW, I recently read an early '70's interview with Felix Pappalardi of Mountain, who said that he always had the bass control turned all the way down on his Sunn stacks. Might have got the idea from Jack Bruce, who used only the bridge pickup on his Gibson EB-3.)

Here's a perfect example: what Danny Sapko calls "the heaviest BEHS tone I've ever heard." Sounds massive, but notice that there's literally nothing below about 100 Hz there. All mid-range and distortion.