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Crest CA9 Lovers speak up.

#81
OK I'm wrong again.

Pulled the Yamaha back out of my PA and stuck it back in my Bass Rig. Set the High Pass Filter at 50 hz, tried some other settings as well. I turned the YSP Switch off and started to Play. I had the Level dimed on the Power Amp. I could notice the Gain difference as I had just played the QSC right before and then plugged in the Yamaha. To get the same Volume Level I had to turn up my Master Output on the Pre.

It imediately started farting out and clipping as well. I swapped back and forth trying each amp for a wile then going to the other. I tried different Level settings and all kinds of stuff. I can run the QSC at 30 hz with no trouble at all though it is knocking things off the walls upstairs and making my Wife go nuts.

There is absolutely no doubt the RMX 2450 will flat blow away the Yamaha in every way. The QSC is able to reproduce way low bottom end without even straining. As I said earlier the QSC can reproduce Low End so well I can take the Low Cut off and it produces more than my Cab can handle but the Amp is still cooking away. The Yamaha just starts to struggle with it all in the Low End. It started getting undefined and Clipping. No matter how I set it when I really push it and hit my Bass hard it Clips and it's not pleasent. The QSC dosnt make a harsh Clipping sound when the Clip Lights Come on, it just keeps a pounding.

OK at this point lets say it's not Lead Sled over Lightweight (since that seems to bring out some rather heated discussion), lets just say the QSC pummels the Yamaha in Horse Power.


There is no doubt the Yamaha can not keep up with the QSC and since the QSC is considerably heavier than the Yamaha, the Lead Sled wins!
 
#83
OK I'm talking to myself now. Dont worry been doing it for years.

Found this comment about the CA Series on the Crest site.


Professional power-handling capabilities and exceptional low-end response make this amplifier an ideal choice for installations and touring applications that demand the finest audio quality.
 
#84
Red Planet said:
Also Alex I'm telling you this cab can handle a lot of SS Power. I guess you would have to hear it. I do agree it can not handle 2500 watts of super lows.
Click to expand...

Your cab can handle about 250W @ 80Hz before the speakers exceed Xmax. Power handling then rises again as you approach the tuning frequency and then plummets - at 30Hz it's likely to be about 50W. However fancy a 4x10" you buy this excursion limited power handling will be similar.

The big problem with this kind of testing is that the amp with the most distortion and most compression will be the least demanding on the cab and therefore create the biggest fattest sound. The amp that has the most uncompressed and clean power will make greater demands on the cab and actually sound less loud and fat.

If you want to test which amp has the greatest power, particularly in the lows, you'll have to do it with a high quality 2x18" PA sub or similar - nothing less will be able to handle your amps bridged output well enough to give you an accurate comparison.

Alex
 
#88
alexclaber said:
Your cab can handle about 250W @ 80Hz before the speakers exceed Xmax. Power handling then rises again as you approach the tuning frequency and then plummets - at 30Hz it's likely to be about 50W. However fancy a 4x10" you buy this excursion limited power handling will be similar.

The big problem with this kind of testing is that the amp with the most distortion and most compression will be the least demanding on the cab and therefore create the biggest fattest sound. The amp that has the most uncompressed and clean power will make greater demands on the cab and actually sound less loud and fat.

If you want to test which amp has the greatest power, particularly in the lows, you'll have to do it with a high quality 2x18" PA sub or similar - nothing less will be able to handle your amps bridged output well enough to give you an accurate comparison.

Alex
Click to expand...

Did I actually say I wanted to test which amp has the most power in a Perfect World?


I would agree with what you say though concerning playing my Mesa Powerhouse 4x10 or my Ampeg SVT 4X10 HLF. Thoes cabs could not take this kind of power the SWR just eats it up. I can run the QSC with the High Pass set on 30 HZ and the Level on the Amp dimed with no problem. It does generate some heat from the Poweamp though.:D Now this cab can not take it if I totally turn off the High Pass Fillter so on that note your right.

Your just gonna have to trust me on this one. The Yamaha is not putting out more undistorted clean power than the QSC, it's putting out less and overdriving/clipping the Amp.

On testing the power of the Amps. It may be a better test for the Amps but hooking a Subwoofer up to one of my Amps would be absolutely useless, unless I was planning on Playing a Sub for my Bass rig. I'm playing these Amps through the SWR G IV and that is what I need the best results from.

So your right but your wrong.

Now what I'm fixin ta say please take in jest everyone. I think some folk get just a little to rapped up in Engineers Specs on a Piece of Paper and dont have enough concern for whats acutally happeing. The world and it's pieces don't work that way. Everything can not be regulated down onto a Piece of Data. How do I know this? I have worked many years with different types of Engineers and what the Book says does not allways happen in the World we Live. Quantum Physicist well tell you some times the Data does an about face, defying the face of eveything they know.

My point is dude your setting here telling me basically my Speaker Cab is blown up and I'm telling you it's working fine. Who does everyone believe? If you look back I even posted Pics so folks could actually see my settings and know zactly what I'm talkin bought Willis.




M2PlusQSC_1415.jpg
 
#89
Red Planet said:
My point is dude your setting here telling me basically my Speaker Cab is blown up and I'm telling you it's working fine.
Click to expand...

No I'm not, I'm telling you it is operating far beyond its clean (<10% THD) sound reproduction capability if you are indeed putting as many watts into it as you think you are.

There is a big difference between pushing a cabinet into this gradually increasing compression/distortion situation and 'blowing it up'.

If you like the sound of one amp with your cab than another then that's all well and good. But don't automatically assume that's because the other amp is less powerful.

Judging by your choice of preamp and how you're choosing to tweak it it is fairly clear that you like quite a lot of compression in your sound and if one amp is more compressed than another then that's the one you'll prefer.

Alex
 
#90
alexclaber said:
No I'm not, I'm telling you it is operating far beyond its clean (<10% THD) sound reproduction capability if you are indeed putting as many watts into it as you think you are.

There is a big difference between pushing a cabinet into this gradually increasing compression/distortion situation and 'blowing it up'.

If you like the sound of one amp with your cab than another then that's all well and good. But don't automatically assume that's because the other amp is less powerful.

Judging by your choice of preamp and how you're choosing to tweak it it is fairly clear that you like quite a lot of compression in your sound and if one amp is more compressed than another then that's the one you'll prefer.

Alex
Click to expand...


I am certainly not Pushing the Amp to it's full potential. Notice my Master Output Level on the Preamp is not dimed. I find it works best set like it is, any further and two things would happen, one I'd blow up my Cab and two anything past about 3/4 on my master and it starts getting a little noisy and I dont like any noise whatsoever.

As far as Compression. it would appear I have it set High but that is all dependent on the Amount of Gain goin into the Compressor. It barely comes on and usually only Fires when I hit hard. If you'll notice (BTW I'm not sure exactly why) MY Input Gain is Padded. I do this because even with my non Active Bass I have to turn the Gain way down in order not to Clip the Input, so I Padd it and turn it up a little. It just seems to give my a little more flexabillity. I have the Input Gain set so as to never Light up the Clip Light.

I do have my Copressor Level turned up a little further when my Solo Boost Engages. That is so I do not do any damage to my Cab when it gets so freakin loud.

FYI the amp is not Compressing nor the Cab. In 35 years of Playing I know the difference. It's open and hard.

Though I did some further Testing today between the QSC and Yamaha in my PA Cranking some Bass heavy Steely Dan and it's clear the QSC has way more ass when pushed than the Yamaha.

There is no mistaking it. The QSC pummels the Yamaha in Performance though I'm not saying the Yamaha dosnt have it's place. For one it would serve most folks well if they were Playing in a Band that didnt have two Marshall Half Stacks, and a Loud arse Drummer to contend with and two it's half the weight of the QSC.

Our drummer is quite frankly one of the Loudest Drummers I have ever heard in my life and whats funny he Plays a single Bass Pedal and you would swear he was Playing a Double Bass. I'm not sure how he does it, I just set back and Rock. We lock in on a Poly Rythem while everyone else holds on for dear life. :D
 
#91
It is impossible to tell without dynamic measurements of what's going on with the amps in this type of situation -- distortion, limiting, compression, whatever.

The bottom line for RP is 'what provides the sound he's after?'
At the moment he is preferring the RMX over the Yami.

What's the problem with that?

I agree that his results may not answer the question that a lot of bassists out there have (are there real-world tone advantages to a well designed conventional power supply power amp over a switch-mode power supply amp?), but I think that however each bassist goes about getting 'satisfaction' regrading finding his/her answer to that question is fine with me.

Sure blind (or double-blind) comparing after gain matching is surely the best approach, but may not be practical for a lot of people.

You know the mind is a funny thing -- prejudiced expectations; loss of visual context (in a blind listening test); real experience in detailed, subjective analysis of sound; accurate retention in your memory of sounds; etc.

I think the bottom line is 'if it sounds good to you, it sounds good'.

I also think that getting familiar with a specific system in a variety of different environments over an extended period of time is a huge factor.

Some sounds grab you right off the bat, but over time can be fatiguing to your ear.

So, RP, dude, whatever rocks your world -- more power to you, man!
 
#92
Agreed. I'm certainly not saying that Gain Matching is wrong or refering to Technical Data/Specs is'nt something one should do.

However for my purposes I have done the research I needed to decide what kind of Hores Power works with this Cab. I started off using a QSC RMX 850 with this rig and the 850 just could not put out the amount of Power for good Clean Headroom and Crystal Clear Solid Notes with Clarity and Definition at the Volume Level I need. I also know (by listening) when I'm pushing the Cab too hard.

No Scientific Test is going to change something about how the Yamaha Performs (without modding it) but if you really do not believe me I'll make you a deal in one.:D It's a little over a month old without a scratch on it.

BTW for a while I thought the Yamaha was getting the job done. I hadn't been playing much and not in a full band setting for a while becuase I was getting over Spinal Surgery. The first time I realized I had a problem was when the Marshall Stacks came into the picture. All of a sudden I was running out of steam. I then understood I had to figure out something.

In a nut shell the 2450 is really nicely getting the Job done and there is absolutely no disputing that unless you think I'm making all this up and why in the world would I? I was convinced yesterday that by using the High Pass Circuit on the Yamaha it was then going to perform like the QSC but it flat out did not.

I then ran some tests with both amps in my PA driving six 15's (3 on a side) stereo at 2 ohms and the QSC out performs the Yamaha in that context as well.


I know my next comment is going to bring out the wolves but I am now absolutely Convinced that the heavier Transfomrer Based Amps are superiour to the Switch Mode Amps. Now I'll admitt I'm basing this off just the Yamaha maybe other Brands would perform better, though you can bet I'm not going out to spend my hard earned money to find out. At this point I'll be sticking with the Lead Sleds from now on.

Chances are my next gig I doubt I'll even be needing this kind of Horse Power but it will be there if I need it. I doubt we will be playing as loud as we did the other day in my Studio.

I will certainly be finding out at a Gig Saturday Night. I'm going to take my Bass Rig though I'll be playing Guitar most of the night. I play Guitar in this paticular Band most of the time. I much prefer to play Bass but in this Lineup I have to Play Guitar. I play Bass in another Band.

FYI I'll be playing 59 Tele Custom into a 1988 Mesa Boogie Mark III Combo fully Loaded with an EV in it and occasionlly stomping on an OCD for Solos. :bassist:

Now lets get this thread back to a disscusion about Crest Audio CA 9's. Debating all this other stuff is not what the thread is all about. If you want to talk about how wonderful Switchmode Amps are start a thread.This thread is about the CA9.

After going through this testing I am certainly going to try and come up with a CA9. For a number of reasons. Now I should admitt I have never played a CA9 that I remember. Just on the shear amount of glowing loyal users I'll be getting one.

I plan to put the RMX 2450 back into my PA and sell the Yamaha. I want to put a CA9 into my Bass rig and see how it performs as compared to the 2450. For some reason me thinks I'll like it.
 
#93
How well does the CA9.......

Clip?

Does it have a built in Clip Limitter that reduces the Signal Level when it does Clip?

Do they get real hot like the 2450 when you push them hard?

Would it be difficult to remove the 5 way Binding Post and install a set of Speakon Connectors in their Place?

How does the Amp react when you drive it really hard?
 
#94
Get an amp with enough power that you never push it into clipping. Then clip limiting won't matter, and it won't run hot. I would never ever consider swapping the output terminals on a power amp especially in this output range. A QSC PLX 3402 would make 2200 watts bridged into your Goliath as long as your pre can drive it properly, it has highpass filters to let you go louder without killing your cones, and it comes with speakons.

The lack of filters, speakons, and weight are the downsides of the CA9.

BTW -- you can have a PLX modded by lord valve to have higher input sensitivity. He charges $50.
 
#95
If you simply must have Invalid Link Removed (has speakon connectors, switchable limiting & filters), but for this price point I'd be tempted to go with Invalid Link Removed (supposedly have lead sled slam without the weight).
The EV P3000 is 3 rack spaces and weighs 64 lbs.
Both units are over $3k though...:bawl:
 
#98
lo-freq said:
I think the bottom line is 'if it sounds good to you, it sounds good'.
Click to expand...

Exactly. These systems are complicated and non-linear and to make global statements is rarely useful but if you just try the gear and work out what works for you then that's often the best route to the solution.

So it seems clear that the QSC is working better for Mr Planet, which is great because it isn't that big or heavy and he already owns it. Sorted!

Alex
 
#99
pickles said:
Get an amp with enough power that you never push it into clipping. Then clip limiting won't matter, and it won't run hot. I would never ever consider swapping the output terminals on a power amp especially in this output range. A QSC PLX 3402 would make 2200 watts bridged into your Goliath as long as your pre can drive it properly, it has highpass filters to let you go louder without killing your cones, and it comes with speakons.

The lack of filters, speakons, and weight are the downsides of the CA9.

BTW -- you can have a PLX modded by lord valve to have higher input sensitivity. He charges $50.
Click to expand...

Why not consider swapping the 5 ways to Speakons? It could easily be done. The only reason I would do that is for set up convenience. I dont care for spades, bannana plugs or bare wires into 5 ways. For me it takes too much time setting up for a gig. The Speakon is quick, easy, and a dang good connection.

As far as wattage on power amps. I'm sort of new to this area of thinking. Though I have been playing for 35 years I mostly have allways played Tube Amps for my Bass Rigs. Using a solid state Power Amp is a semi new experience for me.

I posted a thread here a while back about the subject and many many guys suggested getting a Poweramp way over what the Cab is rated for, for the extra Clean headroom. I believe the School of thought was if an amp is rated at close to the cab, the amp is operating at full power which is running it at it's limitts.

I'm sure the PLX's, PL2's, and PL3's are better than the Yamaha but at this Point I'm stuck on the Heavy Buggers after going through this situation. The Yamaha is a good Amp but the QSC is better IMO. Had I known this I would never have bought it. One of my constraints at the time was I was trading some Equipment in with no cash. I got a really good deal from this store but my choices were the Products they sell.

They do sell Crest so I could have gotten a CA9 though it would have costed me probably twice as much as the Yamaha (which I didnt have at the time).

Right now I' going to sell the Yamaha for a pretty good deal considering it is almost brand new and get a used CA9 for my Bass and put the QSC back in my PA.
 
#100
lo-freq said:
If you simply must have Invalid Link Removed (has speakon connectors, switchable limiting & filters), but for this price point I'd be tempted to go with Invalid Link Removed (supposedly have lead sled slam without the weight).
The EV P3000 is 3 rack spaces and weighs 64 lbs.
Both units are over $3k though...:bawl:
Click to expand...

Unfortunately that is a little bigger than I need and way more money than I can afford.

I did get a chance to Play a couple hours today with a Guitar Player and Drummer. My God with the QSC in there it is Majorly Massive. The shear amount of Low End Torque is unbelieveable and the Cab dosnt appear to be working too hard.
 

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