Double Bass C♭, B♯, E♯, F♭

[Blissful_Lad]

As with most things, you push the limits and it starts to break down.

Try notating this Db/B (Neapolitan+6, or Augmented Sixth, or bII+6) using the Nashville Number System.

I'm perfectly happy reading Db/Cb or Db/B, and moving onto the next change - just pay me.

 

[Lee Moses]

This thread has turned worse than the "What is the Key Signature for an F Blues" thread.

 

[wathaet]

Let's look at that web-site again.
(Most probably, I've missed something due to my age).

View attachment 2954520

"While the term bass note refers to the lowest note in a chord, the term root note refers to the note from which the chord is derived or formed.

When a chord is played in root position, the root note is also the bass note."
What's The Difference Between A Root Note And A Bass Note? - Hear and Play Music Learning Center

Not the best explanation maybe, but what confuses you is that once the F minor root note is raised, the root of the chord is IMO now perceived as Ab. It is clearer if you look at the slow development of this chord through the Baroque period to Beethoven Pathetique sonata where it shows up with a b5. IMO this is a likely forerunner to the famous opening chords in Tristan much later.

 

[wathaet]

As with most things, you push the limits and it starts to break down.

Try notating this Db/B (Neapolitan+6, or Augmented Sixth, or bII+6) using the Nashville Number System.

I'm perfectly happy reading Db/Cb or Db/B, and moving onto the next change - just pay me.

Here is an explanation how these are notated using the roman numeral system (as well as figured bass): [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

The "Nashville system" as some here refer to it,
occured in the litterature for the first time in 1776 on the other side of the Atlantic.
I would personally hate to read charts this way,
but I find it pretty useful for personal analysis of charts or compositions.

 

[Blissful_Lad]

Here is an explanation how these are notated using the roman numeral system (as well as figured bass): [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

The "Nashville system" as some here refer to it,
occured in the litterature for the first time in 1776 on the other side of the Atlantic.
I would personally hate to read charts this way,
but I find it pretty useful for personal analysis of charts or compositions.

Yes, I know of this.

I'm the one that pointed out the D♭-B♮relationship (i.e., Augmented Sixth), way back in Post #13.

I'll take the blame for: "This thread has turned worse than the "What is the Key Signature for an F Blues" thread."

In closing, D♭/B is perfectly correct in the right context. And, the Key Signature for F-Blues is One Flat.

 

[Blissful_Lad]

Excellent examples.

Generally, Augmented Sixth Chords are in First Inversion (D♭, F, A♭, B) and resolve “outward” - as the above examples indicate.

The next challenge will be to find examples in Root Position:

D♭/B - (B, D♭, F, A♭)

This chord would likely resolve “inward”.

 

[Blissful_Lad]

What do you mean by saying, "In Root Position"?

Some clarification...

I was looking at this D♭ chord, that keeps appearing in this post, as a Neapolitan (♭II) and resolving to a C Minor (or Major).

Adding the B♮ (the augmented sixth of D♭) makes it a "Neapolitan German Augmented Sixth"(♭IIGr+6) - a German Augmented Sixth on the ♭2.

It should also be noted that MOST of the time, a Neapolitan chord appears in First Inversion: F♮, A♭,D♭. Now, add the B♮to that: F♮, A♭, B♮,D♭.

I misspoke, I meant for you to find a "Neapolitan Augmented Sixth" in Third Inversion: B♮, D♭,F♮, A♭ -- (D♭/B♮).

I would expect this chord to resolve "inward" to the Tonic, as opposed to usual Augmented Sixth resolving "outward" to the Dominant.

Maybe you can find an example?

 

[two fingers]

Yay!!!! DB players argue over dumb stuff too!

I was beginning to think electric bassists had a monopoly on that. Nice to know you guys are human after all.

Now, quick! Somebody tell somebody to get off yer lawn!

 

[Blissful_Lad]

Now, quick! Somebody tell somebody to get off yer lawn!

Nah! Most like lawn gnomes, so you can stay.

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

It's difficult to find those "Db/B" notes in one measure. Sorry for that.

And again, the statement was in the context of chord notation.

 

[matthewbrown]

What always stuck me as stupid is having a 12-tone scale but not assigning each tone it’s own note. Or referring to an interval by anything other than the numeric distance between the tones.

Any silliness we encounter when scoring or speaking about music is the natual outcome of having a silly notational system and an unnecessarily complicated nomenclature for our music.

Or so I think.

You can hop into that phone booth and go back to the Middle Ages, but I doubt that those monks will believe any so-called "equal temperament" system you might want to tell them about. IOW, we're stuck with it, for the same reason we're stuck with days of the week named after Norse gods.

 

[40Hz]

You can hop into that phone booth and go back to the Middle Ages, but I doubt that those monks will believe any so-called "equal temperament" system you might want to tell them about. IOW, we're stuck with it, for the same reason we're stuck with days of the week named after Norse gods.

I agree completely. A standard is a standard. And once one has been established it’s usually here for keeps.

But it’s good to have a dream.

 

[matthewbrown]

A semitone comparison chart.

View attachment 2956486

In This is Your Brain on Music, cognitive psychologist and musician Daniel Levitin notes that all known cultures use musical scales with unequal steps. He explains this as an aid to memory. Equal temperament is a system imposed on human systems that don't use equal steps, based on the physics of the overtone series, which doesn't really support equal temperament, either. As for the monks, I suppose they wouldn't have been interested in changing keys as part of any formal scheme for a symphony or concerto...

 

[Blissful_Lad]

View attachment 2956858

More.
View attachment 2956913 View attachment 2956914

Excellent work in finding so many examples!!!

Still not finding the elusive D♭/B that is functioning as a Neapolitan (♭II or N) and resolving directly to the Tonic.

I don't think you'll be able to find one, as the resolution would require consecutive fifths.

 

[Groove Doctor]

I find reading Db7/B more confusing than Db7/Cb.

A kind request: Observe the 7 in Db7/B and Db7/Cb chords above. If you're going to quote me, please quote me correctly.
Many thanks.

 

[Lee Moses]

A kind request: Observe the 7 in Db7/B and Db7/Cb chords above. If you're going to quote me, please quote me correctly.
Many thanks.

 

[Blissful_Lad]

My confusion comes from your wording.
1. A Neapolitan (or N6) chord, and
2. An Augmented Neapolitan chord, but...

The chord I am looking for is the one Rachmaninoff is using in example (b) - D-F#-A-B#. It's a Neapolitan with added Augmented Sixth.

However, Rachmaninoff’s use of this Neapolitan chord is in 2nd inversion and resolves to the V7 before the tonic.

I’m looking for a 3rd inversion "Neapolitan with added Augmented Sixth" chord resolving directly to the tonic. In the key of C Minor, that would be a Db/B chord resolving to Cmi.

You've shown many examples of a “Neapolitan (Db, F, Ab), with added Augmented Sixth (B)”. But, none in 3rd inversion. I don't think it exists...

 

[Blissful_Lad]

I think I did my share. Now, it's time for the highly educated to step in.

I believe you exhausted the possibilities!