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Darkening Pao Ferro and Sapeli

#2
If you apply naptha or any solvent, it will show what the wood will look like when you apply the finish. Take some scraps and try it. Are you going to use laquer, poly, or oil on it? Take your scraps and try those out as well to see what they look like. You might not need to dye it.
 
#5
transtint in water or alcohol makes a great wood dye that accentuates grain visibility.
start with a dilute solution and do tests on scrap pieces
pick a brown, adjust with yellow, red, green drops drops until you come up with something compatible to your original wood color
I just finished a bass dyed in this method but am having trouble uploading pictures so I'll have to try and get some up tomorrow.
 
#7
I have used sapele, khaya, and andiroba as a substitute for honduran mahogany on some furniture projects (I moonlight as a custom furniture maker). I use the water-based General Finishes brand dye stains. Mix three parts medium brown with four parts orange. This is the finish espoused by one of the top makers of reproduction greene and greene furniture on the west coast. You'll need to pre-raise the grain with water and lightly sand off the fuzz with some p320 before dyeing. This method adds warmth to the wood color prior to the topcoat, and preserves the ribbon-stripe figure in sapele.
 
#9
Hi Kinquest. Like you, my stain of choice is water based dyes. The character is much clearer rather than painted over. I have read that it has less chance of fading.

Also like octaedro7, I use oil on my basses. Real tung oil. Funny how you want darker color. I always get sad when using more porus wood and the oil darkens the grain. I like lighter opposed to darker.

There is ways to pre-seal the wood so that the stain will not make it darker. But I like the idea of the tung oil penetrating deeply to preserve the wood (so I put up with the darker look).

Octaedro7 - I have an idea that I have never tried, but, curious about. It would need testing and I have no idea it would really work...Some people have bleached the wood, then, used stain to get the color they desire. Wondering if that could give you more grain in the darker stain? I have heard that the bleaching could take luster out of the wood though.

jp
 
#10
Konquest - I tried a technique with the water based dyes. I do it in 2 stages which give it more of a 3 dimensional look. Different woods respond differently, so, there is a recipe you have to develop for each kind to get what you want to see.

Like for woods that get a nice golden brown color...I stain with brown. Let completely dry. Then I sand with fine sandpaper untill the only brown is showing in the deep grain (this must be done evenly). Then I die with the yellow. Sometimes top it off with a lighter brown with a hint of red.

Anyway, through experimentation various grains appear. Like the deep grain is clear, but there is a nice yellow hue behind. Then sometimes you can see the other grain, like bees or clouds (which would not have shoen will typical technique).
jp
 
#11
octaedro7 - A technique I learned using the oil. After doing all your fine sanding...fille the grain with oil using this technique...flood the wood with oil, then, for the first oil layer, swirl the oil while sanding lightly with the fines sandpaper. Try to "push" the fine wood dust into the big pores. Maybe even drag across the grain to paddle it in place.

When the oil starts getting dry, take a dustles rag and wipe the whole area. Even to the point of polishing a satin finish. Let completely dry (at leaset a day or two with good ventilation). Then do your usual oil layering or french polish techniques.

I found a much smoother finish. Yeah...and I do my fretboards too!.

Hope that gives you some fun ideas. --jp
 
#12
Thanks JonPar, really helpful and detailed. I love the natural color and grain of pao ferro, and I find it to be a great fingerboard wood, that's the reason I choose it, problem is that I did not considered the color combination of the rest of wood I aquire for my build. Anyway I'm taking this as an opportunity to learn more about staining.
What's the hardest, close grained wood you have successfully stained?
My concern is only dying the surface of the wood and that after a short while the color goes away
 
#13
A few wood finishing observations:

Just so we're clear: you aren't trying to stain the Pau Ferro, right? Woods such as Pau Ferro, Cocobolo, Bocote, Goncalo Alves, etc. are members of the rosewood family and probably won't take a stain. Hell, it is hard to get those woods to even take a finish! For those woods I'd recommend a sanding progression through 600 grit, and then wet sanding with BLO or tung oil using either a super fine synthetic non-woven pad (Mirka is one manufacturer) or Liberon brand steel wool (worth the extra $$ because it doesn't leave steel wool residue all over everything). Follow that up with a buffing pad on your random orbital sander and the wood will GLOW. I built a Japanese Gong stand and a Mirror frame out of rosewoods and this is the "finish" schedule that I used...

The only thing that sticks to everything is shellac. Dewaxed shellac sticks to anything and anything sticks to it, so if you want to seal the wood to prevent blotches before staining, I'd recommend thinning Zinser SealCoat 50/50 with denatured alcohol and wiping on a thin coat, then sand lightly with p400 or higher and the porous areas will color evenly, although not as dark as it would on bare wood.

Re: the dye/sand/dye thing. This is awesome for woods such as figured maple, figured ash, flame birch, etc. Darker woods you could "warm up", I suppose, but I have done the following on tiger maple and quilted maple: ebony dye, then sand back, then a brightly colored dye over that, followed by a shellac seal coat, then gloss topcoat. IMHO, Modulus does these finishes the best, although the "Ceruse" finishes done by George Furlanetto employ a similar technique on ash that is stunning, using colored grain fillers instead of dyes. If you were to do this on sapele, which is already kind of darker, I'd recommend a dark brown to accentuate the ribbon figure, then sand back, then either straight on to topcoat or yellow or orange mixed with a small amount of medium brown. Experiment with scrap.

Finally, Talkbass is probably not the best place for these discussions. Go to the forums at Sawmill Creek Woodworkers Community - The Sawmill Creek Press. There are people in the finishing forums over there that have forgotten more about wood finishing technique than most people know!
 
#14
Konquest - Thanks for the tips. I will try them. Especially the thinned shellac. That is a must on woods like cherry.

You are so right about woods like cocobolo. I even have a hard time gluing it! Those woods have so much oil in them. What kind of glue do you use?

I liked the lemon oil on the fretbord idea. I tried it on my newly sanded neck and it felt real nice!
 
#15
octaedro7 - nice question about hardest, tight grain, wood staining question. Off the top of my head...I think bubinga is fairly hard. It has various types of fibers that pickup staining many different ways. Especially if you do the staining technique like Konquest just mentioned.

I actually did try staining bubinga with a black, then, sand, then yellow, then a final red-brown. Turned out great, but, with some fuss. There was alot of playing around to get the color even across the bass body I was working on after the black stain. Looking at that bass now, I am happy I took the extra time.

Anymore, I just find nicely grained hardwoods, then let their natural color come through the tung oil. I once did the sanding with oil on the first pass of treating a top plate that was a lighter colored spalted sycamore. It had some widely spaced dark brown grain. After I did the oil sanding, some of the color came out of the dark grain and made a nice warm yellow hue in the lighter areas. I was very happy with it and didn't use any stain.
 
#16
Wiping with a solution of lye will darken some woods that normally darken with exposure to sunlight. I know it works for cherry and poplar; I suspect it'd work for yours as well. The easiest place to get lye used to be Red Devil drain cleaner which came as powder in a can. I'm not sure if it's readily available any longer. Lye is nasty stuff (it's extremely caustic) so use appropriate precautions if you try it.
 
#17
There is an old fashioned way of darkening some woods with amonia. I think it was called "fumming". It only was suppost to work on some woods like oak and others with similar characteristics.

Never tried it???
 

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