Double Bass DB signal flow/set up question(s)

[sloppysubs]

Hey all,

Apologies first if I have placed this in the wrong sub-forum, I just couldn't think of anything better. I have been kicking around an idea for a while, but this is more of a signal flow (and is it possible or reasonable) sorta thing. This is also somewhat inspired by some new upright players I have heard in the "free" jazz realm (Luke Stewart) and sorta trying to play further with ideas from Melvin Jackson's Funky Skull. Make no mistake, I'm sure I am overcomplicating this, regardless, I'm hoping you all can point the way.

I know that you can have a pick up put on and run that through an amp, DI, house, etc. via the normal means. I have done this in the past to great success. I often have put effects in the chain as I was doing it (distortions, delays, synth, etc). But I have been scouting for an EA iAmp Doubler or and AI Clarus 4 for that mic input and phantom power. Which is where I find my quandary:

If I was to mic my upright, run the mic into the the amp and then mic the cabinet (cabinet would be isolated in an effort to minimize feedback) and record that signal, would this cause any problem? I was hoping to run all my effects in the effects loop so I can still use them, particularly a looper. Has anyone ever tried this? I was gonna use a dynamic mic at the cab, and a ribbon at the bass.

"Why not just use the pick up?" Well, I really would like to experiment with the room and the sound of the mic vs. the pick up. My ultimate goal here would be to mic the bass have that signal into the amp and then mic the cab for tracking using all my effects and attempt to sorta make some on the spot, looped, bass only pieces playing with the mic and proximity and these things.

Any thoughts? Advice? Sincerest thank yous in advance.

-kc

 

[AGCurry]

For live playing, or for recording?

For recording, pretty much anything goes, as you don't have to concern yourself with volume and feedback, and you can take as much time as needed to set everything.

For live, your plan sounds like risky business... I for one would be exhausted by the complications. There's a strong bias among the electrified DB players here for just using a pickup, although in places where a sound system and sound technician are provided, miking the bass through FOH is normal as well (in which case, you could still use the pickup->amp as a monitor).

However, the effects and looping you want do complicate things. Were I trying something like this, I would split the signal from the pickup so I could use effects on one send and have the other "natural." My feeling is that (because I'm dealing with so much processing) any benefit from miking would end up being trivial and lost to an audience.

 

[Ric Vice]

You can take a listen to Viktor Krauss on Youtube and check out his setup. He actively uses pedals very effectively.

 

[Don Hergert]

I have both a mounted piezo system and a mounted mic on my DB. They can both be used at the same time, but more often I use either one or the other. Either can be used with my bass amp. Either or both can be used with my 2-channel powered PA amps. Either or both can be used with an FOH...

Piezos are better in high volume situations, they tend to be more controllable regarding feedback. But they also tend to sound electronic, so they tend to sound better with other amp'ed instruments...

If I'm playing with other amp'ed instruments I'll use my peizo system which consists of a Vic's Model C stereo pickup system feeding into an onboard K&K Dual Channel Pro ST pre-amp for tone and blending.

Mics tend to sound better in "sensitive" volume situations which often bolls down to playing with other mic'ed acoustic instruments. Depending on what all is in the signal chain, mics tend to reproduce the actual tone of the DB more accurately than piezos do. But they tend to contribute to feedback in loud volume situations...

If I'm playing with an acoustic group I'll use my mounted mic. I'm a little different than most mounted mic users here in TB/DB in that I use a dynamic mic, so I have no need for phantom power. It's a Sennheiser e604 mic, a very light and compact dynamic "drum and tuba" mic that is simply mounted with a screw onto my tailpiece, pointing from a couple of inches away at my bridge feet. I've used it with my amp and with FOH systems with great success. Because it is a low impedance dynamic mic I use an inline impedance matching transformer for with my bass amp, but that isn't necessary with mixers, so I can send a completely clear mic signal to an FOH with no problems.

I have recently used both my piezo system and my mic at the same time with an FOH, outdoors, in a situation where the sound guy wanted to experiment with both signals. It was an acoustic set, so having both signals was probably a little overkill, but the tone and volume were excellent. We used both for one set, and then for a later set we just used the mic. The difference seemed to be that there was slightly better note clarity from my DB with both the piezo an the mic at the same time, but it was a very subtle difference. The tone mix and blending being done at the FOH could really have been making any noted difference in clarity.

These are just examples of some things you can do... There are lots and lots of possibilities for ways to collect your DB's sound, and equal possibilities for your signal chain. Your DB, and for that matter the group you're playing with and the venue that you're playing in, may not sound the same through these accessories as someone else's situations, so trying something for a while with the expectation to make other choices later is a very good plan.

 

[sloppysubs]

For live playing, or for recording?

Mostly recording. At first anyway, depends on how the experiments go I guess.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

If you want to hear your amp sound, using a mic at the bass is risky, the isolation of the cab mic does not help much.
Using effects often enlarges the feedback risk as they can add or boost some frequencies and that can enlarge the feedback risk.
If you record with headphones, not a problem, but any sound that comes out of a cab can get to the bass mic.

For effects I prefer an EUB, because then I only hear the target sound amplified. With a DB I find that the mix of acoustic radiated sound and processed amp sound sounds a bit strange to me.

 

[Ric Vice]

I own and use two preamps with dual channels. When the DPA 4099 was introduced I combined my Realist with the DPA. I always preferred the sound of the DPA alone. While blending definitely has it’s advantages what I hear on stage is one of the two sources dominating the timbre, depending on the blend. Personally, the Ehrlund gets close enough by itself or the Remic for gigs with good FOH support. Just my take.

 

[JBarz]

However, the effects and looping you want do complicate things. Were I trying something like this, I would split the signal from the pickup so I could use effects on one send and have the other "natural." My feeling is that (because I'm dealing with so much processing) any benefit from miking would end up being trivial and lost to an audience.

I agree with this 100%

I have been puzzling the DB signal chain game for a while now and only recently have had a revelation of sorts.

I run two channels now:

1) clean Full Circle pickup to an fdeck HPF PRE (series 3) into channel one of the amp (PJB 2ch suitcase)

2) KRIVO number pickup (permanently mounted now, I love this f'n thing) into a Two Notes Le Bass tube preamp with an octave up pedal (EHX micro POG) and a reverb/delay pedal in the Le Bass' effects loop. The Krivo does wonders for the tracking on the POG (vs the piezo), and the tube color options from the Le Bass makes the microPOG less synth and more organic dialed in). Imagine a cosmic harmonica playing an octave above your lines, when engaged… this is channel two on the amp itself.

Any other effects (looper/volume pedal/etc) are running through the amp's effects loop so they catch both channels.

I feel like I've solved the puzzle and have no need or desire for a mic - this setup works that freakin' well. "MBOL" + tone control + effects. Microphones+effects = feedback headaches, imho.

At this point, I just need to figure out a way to streamline the rig so it's not such a bear to tear down and setup.

When recording, I suggest you experiment by running as many signals into the computer as your rig can handle. Sure, mic the amp, mic the room, mic the bass, but also run the DI out from your amp (and/or your pre if it's got one).... get as much different signals on 'tape' as you can then you can review the differences and judiciously mute and/or blend at your leisure.