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Double Bass Detache and martele?
- Thread starter 1987
- Start date
They are both variants of bowing. I got these definition's from Jeremy McCoy's Master class at ISB Oklahoma:
DETACHE - French for detached. Also called NON LEGATO. The strokes are separated with small spaces between them but are not marked or accented.
MARTELE - French for hammer. Also called HAMMER STROKE. This stroke is an aggressive variant of spiccato. The famous passage from the Scherzo-trio of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony is often played using this stroke.
and just in case.
SPICCATO - This stroke is generated by controlling the natural bounce of the bow in a succession of short up and down strokes. This is a very important technique to master since it is so frequently used in fast, articulated passages.
Hope it helps.
DETACHE - French for detached. Also called NON LEGATO. The strokes are separated with small spaces between them but are not marked or accented.
MARTELE - French for hammer. Also called HAMMER STROKE. This stroke is an aggressive variant of spiccato. The famous passage from the Scherzo-trio of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony is often played using this stroke.
and just in case.
SPICCATO - This stroke is generated by controlling the natural bounce of the bow in a succession of short up and down strokes. This is a very important technique to master since it is so frequently used in fast, articulated passages.
Hope it helps.
I may be off-base with this, but I consider Martele to be an aggressive variant of the Marcato stroke, which is in itself a variant on staccato, which comes from detache.
Here's a descending list of bow strokes, in terms of strength and articulation, from what I understand.
Detache- simple, some sustain, but not long.
Staccato- signified by the dot. Immediate release of pressure with only residual sustain.
Marcato- signified by the triangle that's missing its base, an accented staccato stroke. Heavier staccato really.
Martele- generally refers to the beginning of the note value only. It's a "hammered" attack, with little sustain, depending on the volume of the passage. I'm not sure how often martele is used in spiccato passages, as spiccato only results when the passage is too fast for staccato strokes.
Here's a descending list of bow strokes, in terms of strength and articulation, from what I understand.
Detache- simple, some sustain, but not long.
Staccato- signified by the dot. Immediate release of pressure with only residual sustain.
Marcato- signified by the triangle that's missing its base, an accented staccato stroke. Heavier staccato really.
Martele- generally refers to the beginning of the note value only. It's a "hammered" attack, with little sustain, depending on the volume of the passage. I'm not sure how often martele is used in spiccato passages, as spiccato only results when the passage is too fast for staccato strokes.
A good description of martele is to form a fist and hammer the heel of your hand down on a table - yes, the word means "hammered" and the bow does not leave the string. It traps the string to an abrupt stop, with a gap before the next note It is meant to be a rather crude sound but full of energy. Staccato is more refined but still with a gap. You can have a long staccato (towards detache) or a very short staccato (staccatissimo).
Your best judges are your ears!
Your best judges are your ears!
Not to be that guy. But When I saw Jeremy McCoy demonstrate this he was flying off the string and pointed out his leaving the string. As he has a pretty decent job. I am rather inclined to believe him.
I take back a little of what I said. The bit about martele being intended to be a crude sound. I should have said more brutal! The rest I'll stick to my guns and quote Ivan Galamian, the famous Russian violin teacher, in his book "Principles of Violin Playing and Teaching"
In pages 70-73 he discusses martele in two forms, simple and sustained. To paraphrase what he says, the martele is a quick percussive stroke with a sharp accent at the beginning of each note and always with a rest between strokes. The accent requires preparation in the form of preliminary pressure. The bow has to "pinch" the string with a pressure greater than the rest of the stroke before the bow moves and this extra pressure lasts long enough to establish the accent. The initial pressure is then released to the degree required to continue the note. If it is released too soon there will be no accent: if it is released too late there will be a scratch. This becomes a problem of timing and coordination.
He says Martele can be played anywhere on the bow using any length. At the end of the stroke most of the pressure is released to avoid a scratchy finish but the bow does not leave the string.
He goes on with more advice, one point being that the initial pressure-release should be accompanied by a corresponding release in the muscular tension in the arm itself. Another is that the pressure-preparation before each stroke sets a definite speed limit on its proper use. When you go beyond this limit you move to another bowing such as the firm staccato, the colle, the whipped bow or the accented detache.
He then talks about Colle (pronounced collay), a stroke where the bow drops into the string and simultaneously attacks the note then lifts in preparation for the next. He likens it to plucking the string with the bow. It is used in the lower half of the (violin) bow, and length and dynamics can vary.
My question is - Are you guys German bow players using the Colle above or are you describing heavy accented Spiccato in the lower part of the bow when you talk of being off the string?
I'm not wanting to start World War III but genuinely interested in more detailed descriptions of your version of Martele. Perhaps we ask Patrick Neher to weigh in too?
Cheers....
David Potts
In pages 70-73 he discusses martele in two forms, simple and sustained. To paraphrase what he says, the martele is a quick percussive stroke with a sharp accent at the beginning of each note and always with a rest between strokes. The accent requires preparation in the form of preliminary pressure. The bow has to "pinch" the string with a pressure greater than the rest of the stroke before the bow moves and this extra pressure lasts long enough to establish the accent. The initial pressure is then released to the degree required to continue the note. If it is released too soon there will be no accent: if it is released too late there will be a scratch. This becomes a problem of timing and coordination.
He says Martele can be played anywhere on the bow using any length. At the end of the stroke most of the pressure is released to avoid a scratchy finish but the bow does not leave the string.
He goes on with more advice, one point being that the initial pressure-release should be accompanied by a corresponding release in the muscular tension in the arm itself. Another is that the pressure-preparation before each stroke sets a definite speed limit on its proper use. When you go beyond this limit you move to another bowing such as the firm staccato, the colle, the whipped bow or the accented detache.
He then talks about Colle (pronounced collay), a stroke where the bow drops into the string and simultaneously attacks the note then lifts in preparation for the next. He likens it to plucking the string with the bow. It is used in the lower half of the (violin) bow, and length and dynamics can vary.
My question is - Are you guys German bow players using the Colle above or are you describing heavy accented Spiccato in the lower part of the bow when you talk of being off the string?
I'm not wanting to start World War III but genuinely interested in more detailed descriptions of your version of Martele. Perhaps we ask Patrick Neher to weigh in too?
Cheers....
David Potts
It just makes no sense to me to play martele off the string. I have not seen it demonstrated that way, and I know of no one (besides McCoy apparently) who teaches it that way. I am a German player and our martele, from what I have been taught, is firmly on the string, with great arm weight (and perhaps some angular tension with the hair to help). Can someone explain how you can execute this off the string? That just seems totally backwards of what the definition calls for, and you obviously cannot do sustained martele off the string.
It sounds like McCoy is describing Galamian's Colle, which is in no way martele, but who knows?
It sounds like McCoy is describing Galamian's Colle, which is in no way martele, but who knows?
- Jan 24, 2002
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Turns out I was thinking of something else entirely. My mistake.
Invalid Link Removed is for violin, but it demonstrates the concept well enough.
Invalid Link Removed is for violin, but it demonstrates the concept well enough.
Kind of vintage, but Portnoi's method book has a thorough, clear description of each stroke as it applies to the bass.
Link Removed
As he describes it correctly, martele is off the string. The "hammer" stroke is vertical, like a hammer...
Link Removed
As he describes it correctly, martele is off the string. The "hammer" stroke is vertical, like a hammer...
I was able to obtain the actual method book a while back, but, as you can imagine, the spine was fragile and when it finally broke, pages scattered everywhere. Thanks for the electronic edition.
Good question. Perhaps we need a better definition of "heavy accented spiccato," with as much description as our definitions of martele and colle, to figure out what's going on?
-Trevor
