DI box live set-up question

[micguy]

In all my life, I have never heard of a sound tech referred to as "A1."

I hear A2 much more often than A1 (Usually there's FOH, monitors, and the helper is the "A2"), but A1 is well understood in my world.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

When a bassist is using a bunch of front-end effects, it is assumed that the DI is not taken off the bass itself, but post-effects (pedals or otherwise), correct? Further, more and more bassists are using all-in-one modelers like the Line6 Helix, Fractal Audio stuff, Kemper Profiling Amp, etc., where the preamp tone, cab sim and effects are all baked-in one box/pedal. In addition, monitoring is done via IEM and/or direct feed to stage monitors, with less or no reliance on traditional stage amps.

In the case where the modeler/fx is used and there are lots of effects, specifically ones that rely on volume dynamics and dynamic frequency range, it seems as if the simple/obvious strategy is to take the DI feed from the modeler/multi-fx (either XLR off the unit or via discrete DI box). Pulling a line directly off the bass before the modeler might totally bork some of the aforementioned special effects. Again, let's assume there's no stage rig to mic, thus a pure DI feed situation.

Thoughts on this scenario as it applies to the conversation?

If mixing sound, I'd still ideally like a feed earlier in the chain unless the bassist has really tested things. The reason is that it's possible the effects are too extreme and%ir cut too much low end. It's easier for me to take a split and have two volume sliders than try to tweak three or four EQ knobs to fix things if that's even possible. If I was using a digital mixer with scenes and could run through every track it might be different.

My reservation is integrating the two sounds, as well as the quality off a point early in the chain. If it's a good DI with a solid and not brittle sound, or can have some top rolled off it's not too bad, but some cheap but solid DIs don't seem to flatter bass. But then if you have a Radial to offer a connection from you'd be good.

Another would be whether I'd be able to react fast and rescue a mix.

But if taking a split I'd want to make it very clear what I was doing.

Have I heard bassists hit a stomp box and vanish from FOH because the bottom end has done? Yes, and including when I've been mixing. Have I been guilty of doing it as a bassist? Sadly yes to that.

The other issue can be envelope filters with high resonance and big peaks, or rather one I have encountered AND created . Have that compressor ready!

 

[Wasnex]

If mixing sound, I'd still ideally like a feed earlier in the chain unless the bassist has really tested things. The reason is that it's possible the effects are too extreme and%ir cut too much low end. It's easier for me to take a split and have two volume sliders than try to tweak three or four EQ knobs to fix things if that's even possible. If I was using a digital mixer with scenes and could run through every track it might be different.

My reservation is integrating the two sounds, as well as the quality off a point early in the chain. If it's a good DI with a solid and not brittle sound, or can have some top rolled off it's not too bad, but some cheap but solid DIs don't seem to flatter bass. But then if you have a Radial to offer a connection from you'd be good.

Another would be whether I'd be able to react fast and rescue a mix.

But if taking a split I'd want to make it very clear what I was doing.

Have I heard bassists hit a stomp box and vanish from FOH because the bottom end has done? Yes, and including when I've been mixing. Have I been guilty of doing it as a bassist? Sadly yes to that.

The other issue can be envelope filters with high resonance and big peaks, or rather one I have encountered AND created . Have that compressor ready!

Some potential problems I should have mentioned is some effects invert the polarity, and digital processors/effects have a bit of latency that can cause phasing. These factors can complicate matters when you are trying to blend pre and post effect feeds from the bassist.

 

[Jack]

aux-fed subs

I read about that on Dave Rat's blog years ago when he was touring with the Chilis and thought it sounded cool however at the time I was in a band that had (and I'm not kidding) a budget-line Soundcraft mixer from the 80s, no outboard, and then a MAPLIN power amp in a handmande wooden case into 2 1x15" Maplin pa tops. That band would simply not invest in PA.

When I got my XR18 and my hard rock band got a decent little Alto system I decided to give it a go and found it rather pointless. I think you're right about it just not being so necessary anymore. We minimise open mics on the stage (both guitarists are DI now and I'm using modelling) so there's not a great deal of bleed and every channel has not only a hpf (which is luxury in itself!) but that hpf is variaable AND there's also a 5 band peq. Further to that, the active subs have a built in crossover, so cabling is actually much easier to not run aux-fed subs. Between all that I can do a fairly decent job at keeping most things out of the subs and that's on a super-budget bar rig in a tiny venue. If I can do it then a proper soundman can.

I never really bothered beyond one or two experiments, interesting that you report that it's falling out of favour generally. Thanks for that.

 

[Wasnex]

I read about that on Dave Rat's blog years ago when he was touring with the Chilis and thought it sounded cool however at the time I was in a band that had (and I'm not kidding) a budget-line Soundcraft mixer from the 80s, no outboard, and then a MAPLIN power amp in a handmande wooden case into 2 1x15" Maplin pa tops. That band would simply not invest in PA.

When I got my XR18 and my hard rock band got a decent little Alto system I decided to give it a go and found it rather pointless. I think you're right about it just not being so necessary anymore. We minimise open mics on the stage (both guitarists are DI now and I'm using modelling) so there's not a great deal of bleed and every channel has not only a hpf (which is luxury in itself!) but that hpf is variaable AND there's also a 5 band peq. Further to that, the active subs have a built in crossover, so cabling is actually much easier to not run aux-fed subs. Between all that I can do a fairly decent job at keeping most things out of the subs and that's on a super-budget bar rig in a tiny venue. If I can do it then a proper soundman can.

I never really bothered beyond one or two experiments, interesting that you report that it's falling out of favour generally. Thanks for that.

I don't have any idea how prevalent the exodus from aux fed subs is. It's just a perception based on a few comments, and also the direction gear development has been going. With state-of-the-art active speakers, everything is networked and processing can be applied pretty much to each discrete component. Lot's of crazy stuff you can do if you have the gear, skills, and time.

While running aux fed subs requires a bit of additional complexity, I am still a fan with the types of systems I have run, as long the idea is to keep the volume relationship between the subs and mains constant.

FYI, the mains in the systems I put together often had four channels: LCR and SUBs. I run the center fills and subs off dedicated post fader aux sends with a bit of delay on the output of each aux, so the center fills and subs integrate better with the LR mains. The subs get only the low frequency instruments of course, and these channels are not sent to the center fills because they are small cabs with limited capabilities. While this is complex for the average bar band, it's way simpler than most big event systems.

Back around 2006, our audio techs were running digital boards like the Yamaha M7CL and PM5D, but not aux fed subs. Both of them had worked with fairly large audio companies before coming to work with us, so I was a bit surprised. But they argued there was no benefit due to the HPFs. I challenged them to run experiments and try aux fed subs to see if the technique produced tighter bass and more gain before feedback. I believe both techs were converts, and I continued using the approach for the duration of my career.

So I while think the prevalence of adjustable HPFs makes aux fed subs significantly less beneficial, I would have to run some experiments with modern gear to be convinced that there is absolutely no benefit.

The downside is a lot of audio techs are inclined to push the sub faders and hype the subs, which most of us bass players think sounds awful.

 

[Geri O]

Man, talk about topic swerve...

Aux-driven subs are as prevalent as ever these days. I just looked quickly at a couple of dozen production riders from national bands and every one of them specifies for the subs to be driven from an aux. These riders kinda set the trends for regional and national touring houses to set up their rigs, since this set-up will work for most all events, local, regional, or national.

NOT deploying aux-driven subs in small club gigs and events should be a Captain Obvious moment, but it’s 2020, so I’m not terribly surprised that it’s not.

(Warning - getting off in the weeds from here on out)....

There are issues with haystacking and shifting crossover points, as mentioned earlier, when a mix engineer is Willy-nilly whirling away on the channels sub send. However, I think we can all agree, the group of 20-year-olds jumping up and down during a show won’t have their concert experience ruined by such activity with the subs.

However, that thought started bugging me a while after I deployed systems with subs on the aux.

So I started tuning the systems with equal energy on all band passes (subs, lows, mids, highs). While tuning and measuring, I ran the processors inline, including subs. Once the system was measured and set to my liking, then I connected the console’s mono send (where there was one) to drive the subs. On the input channels I wanted (kick, bass, floor Tom, etc), I assigned that channel to the mono bus. Things like vocals, keyboards, cymbals, etc didn’t go to the subs because they were not assigned to the mono bus. Now I have a PA properly measured with no guessing on what I’m actually doing to the low end of the sound. Wait....the bass needs more lows? Find that low EQ control on the bass channel, set it to oh, say, 60hz at .30 bandwidth (a third of an octave), boost it to taste, and there ya go. Also, your 2-track board mixes are more accurate since you are now mixing to a linear PA (don’t say “flat”. Just don’t).

This method worked well for me and was easy to deploy. And I’ll admit there were days where I simply drove the subs from a good ol’ aux and whirled away at the aux sends like the next guy.

For all our peculiarities and whims, at the end of the day, you want the audience wowed by the band’s performance. And you left with a paycheck and more work calls to come. No audience member ever left a show thinking “wow, those aux-driven subs were awesome”, although they have been known to leave thinking “wow, that PA and/or the sound guy sucked”...

 

[Wasnex]

Aux-driven subs are as prevalent as ever these days. I just looked quickly at a couple of dozen production riders from national bands and every one of them specifies for the subs to be driven from an aux. These riders kinda set the trends for regional and national touring houses to set up their rigs, since this set-up will work for most all events, local, regional, or national.

Thanks for the reality check.

Comments on various threads I have participated in over the last couple of years suggested that views on aux fed subs in ProSoundWeb were changing, but I guess these were not really representative of what is going on.

I am sort of a "Show me the money type," and all of the experiments I have run suggest aux fed subs make a noticeable improvement to the sound. I use this technique almost every time I run subs. I have even gone so far as to ask to reconfigure house systems I have mixed on...or bring in my own subs which are then run on an aux.

 

[PhishPhan22]

Sorry to break the news to you, but 99.99% of the time what you hear on stage and what is going thru the PA will be different!
The AMOUNT of variation will depend on numerous reasons/factors.

Let's clarify up front...
There's TWO types of "DI" -
1) pure DI's active or passive which convert a high-z input (1/4") to a Low-z (XLR) to FOH and have a "thru" to go to another endpoint and
2) PREAMP Pedals - often called DI's because they have XLR outs to go to FOH as well as a "thru" but also have EQ, and MAY have effect loops, boost switches, and other "stuff"!

Some FOH folks want a clean, uncolored signal at FOH so they can EQ it to fit the venue mix. They want a DI Feed.. NOT an amp/preamp feed!
Many FOH folks are fader pushers who boost the bass and give you mush. They don't care what you send them!.
Your amp/cab likely colors the tone, so some players want their cab mic'd (that has implications in a live setting) and many FOH folks prefer NOT to use mic's when DI's are available.
Some bassists use a DI with split to FOH and amp/cab
Some bassists use a Preamp pedal and send it to FOH and parallel out to power amp and cab.. AGAIN, slight coloring, but closer to what you hear!

Pick your poison, and work with FOH to get what works for both!!

So I’m new to this and playing bigger venues luckily my genzler magellan 800
Has great DI with great features in the head. I am wanting to add a pre amp pedal that DOES NOT have a DI. Now will going through the DI of my head somehow bypass the preamp pedal to where what I’m hearing on stage through my cabs is not even close to what’s coming out of FOh? I def get that a DI signal will be diff sounding on stage then FoH given that the sound tech has control of the eq “if I set the Di that way” an then the Pa speakers wil sound obvi diff then cabs. But what I guess I’m missing or wondering is if a just a tubed preamp pedal without a DI will be the tone in Foh an on stage if I still
Use the heads DI?


Also, other then malfunctioning reasons would there be any reason to carry a pedal
DI if my amps head DI is solid? Just tryin to understand fully how some of my fav bass players got their tone to The house. I’m wondering if investing in my own bass mic for blending the DI an mic signal for bigger shows where I really do want my tone to shine is smarter then a backup
di?

 

[s0c9]

If the additional preamp pedal goes into the amp then yeah, it’s sequential sound.. it will go out of the amps DI to FOH.

 

[Zbysek]

So I’m new to this and playing bigger venues luckily my genzler magellan 800
Has great DI with great features in the head. I am wanting to add a pre amp pedal that DOES NOT have a DI. Now will going through the DI of my head somehow bypass the preamp pedal to where what I’m hearing on stage through my cabs is not even close to what’s coming out of FOh? I def get that a DI signal will be diff sounding on stage then FoH given that the sound tech has control of the eq “if I set the Di that way” an then the Pa speakers wil sound obvi diff then cabs. But what I guess I’m missing or wondering is if a just a tubed preamp pedal without a DI will be the tone in Foh an on stage if I still
Use the heads DI?

It depends on whether you plug into your amp's instrument input or into EFX receive and how you set the pre/post switch on your amp.

In case you plug into the instruments input, the tube preamp will be part of the sound coming out of your amp's DI output.

In case you plug into EFX receive and you set the pre/post switch to "pre", the tube preamp will NOT be part of the sound coming out of your amp's DI output.

In case you plug into EFX receive and you set the pre/post switch to "post", the tube preamp might be part of the sound coming out of your amp's DI output-depending on the amp's topology. You need to approach the manufacturer to confirm this-it is not obvious (to me) from the manual.

Also, other then malfunctioning reasons would there be any reason to carry a pedal
DI if my amps head DI is solid?

The possibility of the amp breaking down during a gig is probably the most compelling reason to carry and use a separate pedal DI box.

Other reasons include:

• the possibility to travel light for ampless gigs
• quality DI box might provide better signal than amp's DI output
• quality DI box usually provides better electrical insulation from FOH
• DI box gives you freedom to change your on-stage sound without causing troubles to FOH

I’m wondering if investing in my own bass mic for blending the DI an mic signal for bigger shows where I really do want my tone to shine is smarter then a backup
di?

I know only very few bass players who do this (one actually).

You can do that. I don't. I explain several reasons why I don't (No. 1 below being the most important by far).

1. I want to be able to change my on-stage sound without affecting FOH.

2. I don't use cabs for some of my gigs.

3. Almost no bass cabs are able to produce low end frequencies which PA is capable of producing. I use relatively small cabs. As a result, most sound-techs (even if you are able to talk them into miking your bass cab) would mix the mic signal with DI signal (to get the full range of frequencies). In such a case, no special "bass" mic is neccessary. Actually, when mic signal is blended with DI signal, many sound techs will use mid-forward (bass shy) microphone such as SM-57 to mic the bass cabs. Every sound tech owns plenty of those-you don't need to bring them to your gig.

4. I often play at small stages or places where there is no "stage" at all (pubs etc). Mic in front of my cab would take the precious space...

5. One needs to watch out not to move the mic in front of the cab. I like to let loose sometimes during a gig. No mic in front of my cab means one less thing to worry about...

My approach is to create "my sound" at the pedalboard and send it to the FOH via pedal DI. In that sense, my cab is not part of "my sound". It's merely my on-stage monitor.

 

[PhishPhan22]

It depends on whether you plug into your amp's instrument input or into EFX receive and how you set the pre/post switch on your amp.

In case you plug into the instruments input, the tube preamp will be part of the sound coming out of your amp's DI output.

In case you plug into EFX receive and you set the pre/post switch to "pre", the tube preamp will NOT be part of the sound coming out of your amp's DI output.

In case you plug into EFX receive and you set the pre/post switch to "post", the tube preamp might be part of the sound coming out of your amp's DI output-depending on the amp's topology. You need to approach the manufacturer to confirm this-it is not obvious (to me) from the manual.



The possibility of the amp breaking down during a gig is probably the most compelling reason to carry and use a separate pedal DI box.

Other reasons include:

• the possibility to travel light for ampless gigs
• quality DI box might provide better signal than amp's DI output
• quality DI box usually provides better electrical insulation from FOH
• DI box gives you freedom to change your on-stage sound without causing troubles to FOH

I know only very few bass players who do this (one actually).

You can do that. I don't. I explain several reasons why I don't (No. 1 below being the most important by far).

1. I want to be able to change my on-stage sound without affecting FOH.

2. I don't use cabs for some of my gigs.

3. Almost no bass cabs are able to produce low end frequencies which PA is capable of producing. I use relatively small cabs. As a result, most sound-techs (even if you are able to talk them into miking your bass cab) would mix the mic signal with DI signal (to get the full range of frequencies). In such a case, no special "bass" mic is neccessary. Actually, when mic signal is blended with DI signal, many sound techs will use mid-forward (bass shy) microphone such as SM-57 to mic the bass cabs. Every sound tech owns plenty of those-you don't need to bring them to your gig.

4. I often play at small stages or places where there is no "stage" at all (pubs etc). Mic in front of my cab would take the precious space...

5. One needs to watch out not to move the mic in front of the cab. I like to let loose sometimes during a gig. No mic in front of my cab means one less thing to worry about...

My approach is to create "my sound" at the pedalboard and send it to the FOH via pedal DI. In that sense, my cab is not part of "my sound". It's merely my on-stage monitor.

Dude thank you so sssoo much for the breakdown. Now I can understand an relate a lot better makes so much sense. so coming out of my head Input like I have been an just running my board an goin DI through head an with thr eq setting “ pre-post” will essentially give me my tone I hear through my cabs? The genzler Magellan 800 head has a great DI I’ve ran it through all types of situations studio and live it does well. But i understand some amps may no have that DI quality which is why as you said pedal DIs. Makes sense. An I love your point on PA cna hit lower frequencies DUH like they have much more high end speakers capable of all frequencies being a PA especially if it’s quality makes total sense. I am adding a preamp pedal the Sushi UA am seeing if the box can have a DI built into it or not. But say I get the sushi pre with no DI an then buy just a backup strictly DI pedal. As simple but quality a Di as I could get radial maybe or the other sushi where it’s just like two knobs. If I’m understanding a pedals DI will take away the cabs an then I will just have the cabs be as you said more just bass monitors an I like this approach as my band is growing but but can afford quality IEMs yet. luckily we’ve played all shows with AMAZING house an monitor mix. But I think I like the approach you are speaking and I imagine to check your FOH sound just listen to your IEM or stage monitor? I mean obviously during souncheck you can walk around but I’m meaning during show I imagine thays how you would check on your tone? One of my fav players tone wise I’m tryin to somewhat emulate is using a Avalon for FOH then an alembic rack pre to go into his head board. He used bergintino cabs but the alembic rack does he not need a head then? Just a power amp to power subs an that’s it? An it just made me wonder why he had the Avalon for FOH an the alembic I imagine they mesh the singnal? Cause why put an alembic rack to just be a stage monitor in essence? I’m
Stil learning bear with me. Btw the band an bass player is gooses Trevor weekz.

And lastly lol, I was kinda thinking the mic an di mesh thing would be best an a lot would do it but I see your Points. It was just weird at one of my biggest shows yet an outdoor festival in the crew even tho I put on rider I was just a head DI they wanted to Mic one of my cabs to blend the mic looked like a little mini rocket it was huge an I can’t lie the sound was as Frickn amazing! An as said it seemed like they were eager to do it. I will say the guy mentioned it was a hella pricy bass mic. But why would they willing want to do that? An thsi was real pro techs like summer camp music fest an we were on one of the 3 big stages not to brag but to just imply this wasn’t like some soundmen that didn’t have experience so I’m jw why an is that ideal. I can see maybe it was do to being outdoors? Cause I can say my 2 years there outdoor big festivals on sound are a BITCH with minimal change over an being out in like a wide open area

 

[Zbysek]

Wow, that's a lot of questions... I'll try to answer some of them...

so coming out of my head Input like I have been an just running my board an goin DI through head an with thr eq setting “ pre-post” will essentially give me my tone I hear through my cabs?

Yes and no. It will give the FOH the signal which is sent to your cabinets. The cabs alter the signal further...

But I think I like the approach you are speaking and I imagine to check your FOH sound just listen to your IEM or stage monitor? I mean obviously during souncheck you can walk around but I’m meaning during show I imagine thays how you would check on your tone?

I don't check my FOH sound during a show. It's the sound tech's job to make sure that our band sounds good in FOH. My job is to send him quality signal which he can work with. I very rarely go to hear my FOH sound during a soundcheck. I trust the sound tech to do his job well.

One of my fav players tone wise I’m tryin to somewhat emulate is using a Avalon for FOH then an alembic rack pre to go into his head board. He used bergintino cabs but the alembic rack does he not need a head then? Just a power amp to power subs an that’s it? An it just made me wonder why he had the Avalon for FOH an the alembic I imagine they mesh the singnal? Cause why put an alembic rack to just be a stage monitor in essence? I’m
Stil learning bear with me. Btw the band an bass player is gooses Trevor weekz.

I am not familiar with Trevor so can't help you understand his setup, unfortunatelly..

And lastly lol, I was kinda thinking the mic an di mesh thing would be best an a lot would do it but I see your Points. It was just weird at one of my biggest shows yet an outdoor festival in the crew even tho I put on rider I was just a head DI they wanted to Mic one of my cabs to blend the mic looked like a little mini rocket it was huge an I can’t lie the sound was as Frickn amazing! An as said it seemed like they were eager to do it. I will say the guy mentioned it was a hella pricy bass mic. But why would they willing want to do that? An thsi was real pro techs like summer camp music fest an we were on one of the 3 big stages not to brag but to just imply this wasn’t like some soundmen that didn’t have experience so I’m jw why an is that ideal. I can see maybe it was do to being outdoors? Cause I can say my 2 years there outdoor big festivals on sound are a BITCH with minimal change over an being out in like a wide open area

It seems to me that the sound tech wanted to have the possibility to choose between the DI signal and mic signal or to mix them together. That's great. It shows that he cares...

Note that I did not argue against miking the cab as such. I just said that I don't see it neccessary to bring my own mic to gigs. If the sound tech wants to mike my cab, I let him do it. I will just let him know that I might be changing the amp's setings during the gig.

 

[PhishPhan22]

Wow, that's a lot of questions... I'll try to answer some of them...



Yes and no. It will give the FOH the signal which is sent to your cabinets. The cabs alter the signal further...




I don't check my FOH sound during a show. It's the sound tech's job to make sure that our band sounds good in FOH. My job is to send him quality signal which he can work with. I very rarely go to hear my FOH sound during a soundcheck. I trust the sound tech to do his job well.



I am not familiar with Trevor so can't help you understand his setup, unfortunatelly..



It seems to me that the sound tech wanted to have the possibility to choose between the DI signal and mic signal or to mix them together. That's great. It shows that he cares...

Note that I did not argue against miking the cab as such. I just said that I don't see it neccessary to bring my own mic to gigs. If the sound tech wants to mike my cab, I let him do it. I will just let him know that I might be changing the amp's setings during the gig.

Sorry on the rambling! I get excited, an ADD i was so use to guitar world where things where just micd up. Playing bass through my cabs an head smaller venues proved no issue now thag I’m “ tone chasing” a little more
With preamps I’m just tryin to figure out how alot of the touring acts with bass do it. I think I’ll always be a person to bring in a head an cab. Call me old school but tech gettitn better I may eat my words. I’ve opened for acts where the digital pedalboard did solid. To the point it sounds like to get a tone that’s “my tone” to get to the FOH is just to go direct input. I do like the micn blend DI option that I for during the festival, it was just such a full sound I guess I didn’t really know which we went with it coulda not been blended but I though he said it was. It just sounded so good tone wise like I felt for the first time I could hear every bit of my tone. But I do get that carrying an using a mic would be less space on Stage. It seems like I should be fine with thr DI from my head an Preamp pedal chain. I think I’ll buy a spare DI pedal eventually a simple basic one.

even though the Genzler Magellan 800’head Di an it’s solid quality do you think pedal Dis are better at taking a hotter signal, keeping out EF, an all that? I do notice the ground lift an other features don’t seem to cut all the hum out but the DI as said is a great sounding one. I don’t have IEms yet. But hoping soon. Thank you for the help!