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DI to the board - pre-efx or post-efx?

behndy

behndy

Inactive
Nov 1, 2008
8,860
117
California
#1
hello there. was reading a post about sound guys at clubs getting annoyed at people with boutique / rack rig setups, and it gave me a question.

should one run a DI to the sound person pre or post efx? is this a stupid question? it seems like it would have to be post efx to get your distortions/filters/what-have-you's thru the house speakers.... am i being a tit?

thanks much.

-0behn desu0-
 
#2
okay, so i'm being a SMALL tit...... i just read further in that post and it discussed (sorta) what i was asking. so, more specifically......

my setup is Tech21 SansAmp -> Hot Cake -> Micro Q-Tron -> (Bass) Muff Pi -> Geiger Counter -> DL4.

for practice, i run out the DL4 into a power amp into a 4x10 Ampeg cab.

for FOH / Club situations, should i have a DI after the DL4? does that piss off Sound People?

thanks much.

-0behn desu0-
 
#3
Depends on the engineer. If he's a tit (see: a lot of us are) or thinks you might drop a huge sub-bass synth depth charge into his subs without a comp or limiting, then he's going to want a dry signal right off the bass, so he has the most control over it. A more accommodating engineer who gets the sense that you know how to use your gear will be more than happy to take a feed after your pedalboard.

Personally, I'll do whatever the heck the player wants if we have enough time and the gear to manage it. Clean line, effected line, and a pair of mics, then blend to taste? Sure thing, give me a few minutes to set it up. Unfortunately, my breed of engineer is rather rare, especially in the club/bar circuit.
 
#4
yeah.... besides horror stories, browsing thru some threads that's pretty much the feeling i got. do you have a recommendation on a good DI? i'm trying to find a nice small one 'cause my pedalboard is getting full and the IDEA was to just bring a pedalboard, basses, and a small poweramp + 2x10 for monitoring.

what's a DI that sound person's would like and be happy to plug into their board?

thanks!

-0behn desu0-
 
#5
Countryman and Radial make killer DI's that most sound engineers love. I have a Countryman because you can take a tube amp and run it between the amp and speaker to get a very tubey sounding DI.
 
#7
i'm using the Programmable one... the one with 3 "save settings" spots. i have it first in the chain because that's my only preamp. i need to make a nice pretty tone to feed to the effects so they have something to destroy right?

thanks.

-0behn desu0-
 
#8
Maybe I am missing something.I only have experience playing at church so forgive me.But if you can only send a dry signal to the board why bother with any effects?Unless you are playing with a loud stage volume from your amp the audience is not going to hear your effected signal...
 
#9
I agree with JumboJack's comment. If I use effects, I want them heard.

I'm using the Programmable one... the one with 3 "save settings" spots. i have it first in the chain because that's my only preamp. i need to make a nice pretty tone to feed to the effects so they have something to destroy right?
Click to expand...

The programmable Bass Driver is indeed a DI. There's no set rule on the order of things, there are some suggestions. Here's what your manual says:

PLACEMENT ORDER OF OTHER EFFECTS
One of the key attributes of any SansAmp is its responsiveness to the dynamics and nuances of your playing
technique. In most cases, your bass should be plugged directly into the SansAmp.We suggest experimenting
to find the order that’s best for you. As a general guide, we recommend:
Place the following effects BEFORE SansAmp PBDR:
Wah-Wah, Pre-Amp, Compressor, Fuzz Box, Envelope Follower.
Place the following effects AFTER SansAmp PBDR:
Chorus, Delay, EQ, Pitch Shifter, Reverb.

That said, I would experiment using the Sansamp last, as if it were your amp. The quarter inch jack then supplys your poweramp/monitor on stage and the XLR goes to FOH. All your effects end up in both feeds.

I think it's worth experimenting with, at least before buying another DI.
 
#10
yeah... i never even THOUGHT to put it at the end. now it kinda makes sense, if you think of the SansAmp AS the amp... most effects would go Bass -> Pedal -> Pedal -> Pedal -> AMP.

what i imagined doing was Sansamp -> Pedal Chain -> Other DI Box to FOH.

but thanks TL5, i will play with them when i get home.

you guys ROKK.

-0behn desu0-
 
#11
If I don't go Post out of my Mesa, like hardly any of the features I bought it for even hit the board!
We do our own sound and I usually/always go Post unless the FOH guy is being a jerk and even then I always have my JDI as it pwns the Rapco this guy is trying to make me plug into.
But I also am smart enough to not get stupid w/ the EQ on my amp.
 
#12
Couple of notes..

1-If you ask most sound guys their honest opinion - they want a clean signal directly from a quality DI box.... nothing in between.

2-Most sound guys are concerned that your (ours) cheap junk can do stuff like send a charge out to the mains .. I've done this.. it is expensive..

3-Most sound guys know we're too cheap to buy noise gates and we'll send a dirty hiss signal they have to dork around... Cheap stomp boxes send noise.

4-I've learned that the easiest way to eff up "your tone" is to be a pain in the sound guy's posterior then send a cheap chain off effects hiss to him... he'll then bassically have to EQ you out of the mix.

The most "effect" I ever send is a slight grit distortion created by my DI box... most of the time it's Active Bass - passive DI.. FOH.. I then let him do his job.

I'll send effected signals to top notch guys.. most of the time it's too much and hassle.

Guitar guys really are the ones that "need" effects.

T.
 
#13
"Guitar guys really are the ones that "need" effects."

yeah.... the project i'm in right now, there ISN'T a guitar player. we're running the bass as the main live instrument. so i do like to use some efx to beef up or mod out the tone, since i'm playing in the front more than holding down the groove.

lol... now if only i had the Les Claypool SKILLS to go with the Les Claypool conceit....... AWESOME.

-0behn desu0-
 
#16
AlembicPlayer said:
+1
dry DI + mic cab = happy campers :bassist:
Click to expand...
Until they turn the mic off of your cab without your knowledge. Happened to me before...won't ever happen again, either. If I'm going to trust a soundman, he better not screw me.

Anyway, there is no longer a one size fits all thing with bass (there never really was, but it sure seemed that's the way it was headed for a while). A good soundman will take your needs into consideration and roll with whatever you give them as long as it works and doesn't make noise. A bad soundman thinks every bassist should plain vanilla DI to FOH. There are plenty of bassists who should, but there are just as many for whom it would be the kiss of death. Either way, it should be the bassist and soundman coming to a consensus based on the bassist's needs, not the soundman's.
 
#17
My bass tone is dependent on my amp. I am very picky about it and I want the characteristic Mesa midrange flavor that I've been tweaking for years to be heard by the audience and there is no possible way to get it from a DI box or even from a pre EQ send on my amp. And I will once in awhile use my microPog as an essential part of a song so that has to be heard as well.

Perhaps I've just been lucky in that I've never had a soundguy argue about getting my signal post EQ/FX. But I've also always made it a priority to talk with him right away as soon as I get to the gig and very politely and respectfully come to a consensus with him about 1) what I and the rest of the band can do for him to make his job easier and 2) what he can do to help us sound the way we want.

This lets him know right away that I understand the problems he has to deal with and gives me the opportunity to give him confidence that I won't be doing anything stupid like fiddling with my volume and EQ settings during the gig because I've worked his side of the board and I know better.

I've occasionally had the soundguy initially request that I go pre-EQ and whenever I've made clear that I understand why he wants this and why I would prefer to go post EQ (and how I promise not to give him mud to work with) they have always been more than cool about it.
 
#18
this hits home for me. I totally understand why the sound guy wants a clean signal, but, I too have spent years agonizing over my "tone" (maybe longer than the sound guy has been alive), and some songs are dependent on certain effects.

Why would anyone want their stage sound to be different than FOH sound? (except for minor Eq-ing to compensate for acoustic aberations, and removing those unnaturally boosted highs and lows that seem to be introduced when "going direct".

I've spent lots of time and money developing the sound that I think is right for my band. Why would I want to give it away to a sound guy I've never met!

I'll admit I've never understood this.
 
#19
Me neither. You have to trust the soundman, but the soundman shouldn't screw you and act like you're a moron, either. If he makes suggestions, it should be in the spirit of what the bassist is trying to do, like maybe suggest a better mic than what the bassist shows up with, or try to get the bassist not to have an itchy volume knob trigger finger.
 
#20
gregoire1 said:
this hits home for me. I totally understand why the sound guy wants a clean signal, but, I too have spent years agonizing over my "tone" (maybe longer than the sound guy has been alive), and some songs are dependent on certain effects.

Why would anyone want their stage sound to be different than FOH sound? (except for minor Eq-ing to compensate for acoustic aberations, and removing those unnaturally boosted highs and lows that seem to be introduced when "going direct".

I've spent lots of time and money developing the sound that I think is right for my band. Why would I want to give it away to a sound guy I've never met!

I'll admit I've never understood this.
Click to expand...


I do understand it from the soundguy's perspective - he knows that for every ten bass players he runs into at least a couple of them will insist on getting their HUGE tone that they get when they're by themselves wanking at home. And think the way to do this is to take their amp and boost the lows and then boost the highs and then boost the mids and then boost the overall volume and then boost the lows again. And give that sound to the soundguy and it will automatically sound like an AC/DC concert to the bar patrons.

Because the soundguy has no reliable way of telling which of the next ten bass players he runs into is going to be one of the problem guys he is safest to assume they all might be capable of causing problems. Solution: eliminate potential for the bass player to cause problems with counterproductive amp-tweaking and go from bass to DI to board.

Most soundguys just assume that the bass will be DI'ed or pre-EQ out from the amp and if the bass player doesn't say otherwise then they must not care. And they're probably right. This is where JimmyM's advice is right on. Go out of your way to intercept this process of assumption before it even starts. Have a meaningful conversation with the soundguy as soon as possible and come to a consensus about how you both are going to work together so you can get the bass tone you want while at the same time making the sound that the patrons hear as good as possible.
 

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