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Did Lt. John Pike torture students at UCDavis?

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#121
MatticusMania said:
Thats some twisted thinking right there.



So now we need a rule that says "follow the rules"? Whats the point of having rules set in the first place?




No, the way we have it now is "follow the rules". If one chooses to break a rule and gets caught there are consequences.

This whole thread is not about "what rules were broken and what rules should be in place?" its about "did the police respond appropriately to the rules being broken?". Its gone off on this tangent that really doesnt make any sense.
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well, i have already made it clear that i think the police did not respond appropriately IF they sprayed people on the grass who were not blocking other people.

now, my understanding (and please correct me if i am wrong), is that some of the people were blocking a public walkway and wouldn't move when told to do so....assuming this is correct, then the question becomes "did the police respond appropriately by spraying them?"... i have not stated a position on that, but I have said i have no sympathy for these people...and that remains true.

could the police have handled it better? i think so. do two wrongs make a right...that's not what i was taught. so, go at it in court.

if i hijacked the thread by making the point that everyone could have gotten what they wanted by simply not blocking the walkway and protesting to their hearts' content, I apologize & will bow out...:p

davesignatureII-1.png
 
#122
Lonesomedave said:
well, i have already made it clear that i think the police did not respond appropriately IF they sprayed people on the grass who were not blocking other people.

now, my understanding (and please correct me if i am wrong), is that some of the people were blocking a public walkway and wouldn't move when told to do so....assuming this is correct, then the question becomes "did the police respond appropriately by spraying them?"... i have not stated a position on that, but I have said i have no sympathy for these people...and that remains true.
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Ok, now sympathy aside, did the police respond appropriately by spraying them?
Thats the crux of the issue. There are rules in place regarding what is deemed an appropriate response to this situation. The answer seems obvious that no the police did not respond appropriately, as they have other means of moving protestors before employing pepper spray.

could the police have handled it better? i think so. do two wrongs make a right...that's not what i was taught. so, go at it in court.
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I also think the police could have handled the situation better, and I belive thats what the point of discussion in this thread has been about.
 
#123
I read somewhere that the protesters involved were preventing the police from following through with the arrest of other protesters. They were somehow blocking the police from leaving with the arrested protesters or something. They were asked to move and when they wouldn't an officer walked down the line and told every person what was going to happen (i.e. pepper spray) before they sprayed them.

There is a full video somewhere, I will look for where I saw it.
 
#124
I want to add: *crowd control* pepper spray for a single line of students, shot concentrated in their face from three or four feet? That's like shooting rubber bullets with the muzzle resting on someone's temple.

I'm not *for* pepper spray use in this case, but this is just an incredibly ignorant use of a tool that could have otherwise (maybe) been defendable. Is this police or a private security company?

No one gets the right to seriously harm someone else just because they warned them before acting.
 
#125
Take a look at the video, how effectively were they blocking the sidewalk when the cop in question simply stepped over from behind them to spray their faces? Then after getting each person he doubled back to spray them again! Maybe some one in a wheel chair or with a cane might have had a problem passing but he proved that any able bodied person would have had no difficulty getting around them. These crowd control tactics are way too harsh. I smell a lawsuit.
 
#126
I read somewhere that the protesters involved were preventing the police from following through with the arrest of other protesters. They were somehow blocking the police from leaving with the arrested protesters or something. They were asked to move and when they wouldn't an officer walked down the line and told every person what was going to happen (i.e. pepper spray) before they sprayed them.
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According to CNN, the officers all claimed that they were surrounded or cut-off or some other such nonsense in their official reports, but that the piles of video footage of the actual event show otherwise.
 
#127
Sad, really. The lessons have to be repeated each generation, only to be forgotten.


etoncrow said:
In 1969 I was in DuPont Circle and the DC police told people to disperse w/o giving them a way out; they began using tear gas and then waded in with clubs.
In 1970 I was in College Park, MD, walking home with my girlfriend after a war protest when six PG county police came up to us and began beating the hell out of me with clubs and then arrested me for disturbing the peace.
In 1972 after a police induced "riot" the police came into the Student Center at Marshall University in Huntington, WV, with a pepper gas machine; they began beating anyone who exited the building with clubs. That same evening I saw a police car swerve onto the curb, narrowly missing a girl; five cops jumped out and began beating everyone within reach with clubs
.
After reading about five pages on this thread I can only shake my head in disbelief..

Sad, really.

edit: funny how living history can change one's perspective
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#128
Lonesomedave said:
you say you disagree yet you make my point.

the protesters can't get people to take up their cause, so they resort to any tactics they think will work. don't like the apathy of your fellow students? convince them to change, with LEGITIMATE means...not with occupy ______ whatever movements that prevent the average person from going about her/his business.

what part of "protest, but don't block others who don't have your cause" don't you understand. if their protest inconveniences others, it is, per se, not peaceful.

davesignatureII-1.png
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As the discussion has more or less stalled around whether you can peacefully protest while blocking someone, I'll contribute nothing by adding this:
Personally, I don't agree that being "not inconvenient to anyone" is needed to conduct a protest peacefully. Surely a lot of people gathering in a specific place for a specific cause will be inconvenient to someone. I say you got the wrong end of it the way you use "rule breaking[should not be allowed]in the name of FREE SPEECH" as an argument. I certainly agree to that statement in it self, but merely being inconvenient by gathering can hardly be considered as "rule breaking". :confused:
 
#129
Jinro said:
According to CNN, the officers all claimed that they were surrounded or cut-off or some other such nonsense in their official reports, but that the piles of video footage of the actual event show otherwise.
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They had arrested protesters AFAIK and the others were planning to block the cops unless they let the ones that had been arrested go. It could have easily turned into them attacking if the cops tried to go.
 
#131
I've got to say: I just got back from last-minute Thanksgiving shopping - the ability to have the cops pepper spray people for getting in my way would have come in very handy at Safeway this afternoon... ;)
 
#134
Non violence doesn't mean that it can't be a interruption to anyone, in fact it should. The civil rights marches were most certainly a inconvenience to some people.

Not to mention the thing about the cops being surrounded is bs. They're cops, no ones not going to let them out of the area. The pepper spraying was on clear violation of the constitution, what part of "we have the right to peacefully assemble" do people not understand?
 
#136
The joke here is that some people actually believe that the action of "occupying" a public space is a peaceful act. That's nothing more than selective thinking.

No torture here. I see a proper response to a proper threat. Hopefully, those folks learned a lesson.
 
#137
guy n. cognito said:
The joke here is that some people actually believe that the action of "occupying" a public space is a peaceful act. That's nothing more than selective thinking.

No torture here. I see a proper response to a proper threat. Hopefully, those folks learned a lesson.
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without wanting to get political, how would you respond to poor decisions by a hypothetical governing body of something that affected you?
 
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