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Dirt + DI (seems to)= ****. Why?

Resurrecting the thread..need opinions.
Last night something curious happened. When I engaged my distortion, low end in the PA system seemed to be gone. Funny though, I have recordings made with the very same bass, pedalboard and DI box, and there's lot of fat there. I can't explain that.

Could it be because of a "weird" crossover frequency in the PA system? Bass sounded beautiful on its own during soundcheck (side note: when we checked the flanger effect on the Boss MD-500 it sounded glorious, absolutely incredible), but the distortion seemed so "thin". The top end actually sounded really good even this way, but there was a distinct "hole" in the sound.
 
How was the bass getting into the PA?

It's possible that from the stage the signal is inverted compared with the PA so when you add the two together acoustically, they cancel out. The same thing can happen when 2 parallel electrical signal paths are summed if one path is inverted from the other.
 
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Resurrecting the thread..need opinions.
Last night something curious happened. When I engaged my distortion, low end in the PA system seemed to be gone. Funny though, I have recordings made with the very same bass, pedalboard and DI box, and there's lot of fat there. I can't explain that.

Could it be because of a "weird" crossover frequency in the PA system? Bass sounded beautiful on its own during soundcheck (side note: when we checked the flanger effect on the Boss MD-500 it sounded glorious, absolutely incredible), but the distortion seemed so "thin". The top end actually sounded really good even this way, but there was a distinct "hole" in the sound.

The band pass and frequency contour of your signal can change when you engage effects. If the audio tech EQs your clean sound to be fat in the system, the fat may be coming from the extended low frequency response of the subs. The idea is there is a lot of energy below 100hz.

Often distortion has a negative impact on your low end. The distortion may reduce the amount of energy that is below 100hz, so the subs really can't do anything to fatten up your sound because there is no energy in their passband.

IMHO most of our perception of fatness is generally between about 75hz and 150hz. So if the distortion only produces strong response down to 100hz, you can still make it sound fat. But it will have a different quality and feel than if you are making your sound fat by boosting lower frequencies.

The solution is to check your distortion sound. The audio tech can either try to use a compromise EQ setting that4 works for both your clean and distorted sounds, or the if the mixing console is digital, the audio tech may prefer to save different EQ presets which will be loaded to the bass channel strip at different times during the show.

It's also possible something went wrong in your signal path.
 
Hey there. I've been using some sort of dirt in my chain for a little while now. Not until I've started doing some home recording, have I realised how appalling this (in my case) seems to sound through my amp's DI, and how much of a pain in the arse I must have been for soundguys over the years.

There just seems to be an un-LPFable offensive fizz that effects the whole signal. I've tried to tame it, but even with quite extreme cuts it's still a pretty unpleasant, and very dull, signal.

The signal chain I'm currently using, should cut a fair amount of top end before it even hits the amp too. I currently use a VFE RUP which is a multiband distortion + clean blend, with effects loops for bass, mids, and top end. I'm currently not using any of the onboard dirt, and using a fuzz in the midrange FX loop, with the high mids cut down almost as much as it'll let me for a bit of a low-mid midrange growl.

Sounds great through the cab, and as described above through the DI...

I'm using an Ashdown ABM500 at the moment, both post & pre-EQ DI signals sound bad with the post-EQ sounding worse. Use a little bit of the "valve grind" to drive the clean signal slightly and make it merge with the dirt better, but even without that on it still sound awful.

So, without using mics, what are the best live sound solutions? Really don't want to resort to giving soundguys a clean bass sound, because there's loads of bits that I need to keep heavy when my guitarists are playing higher or more melodic stuff.

I'd rather use a mic all day, but it's not gonna happen every gig I imagine. Would a DI box with some good speaker sim options work?

Thanks!
Something like the Darkglass Element or Two Notes Cab M is what you seek. Cab impulse responses make direct dirt sound awesome.
You could also use something like a Line 6 HX Stomp or HX FX that had impulse loaders.
 
How was the bass getting into the PA?

SansAmp Bass DI.

It's possible that from the stage the signal is inverted compared with the PA so when you add the two together acoustically, they cancel out. The same thing can happen when 2 parallel electrical signal paths are summed if one path is inverted from the other.

If that's the case, how do I deal with it?

Anyways, I checked again the settings at home. I tried listening to the audio signal using again the same bass, same signal chain, same di, listening through all kinds of devices I had at home: from cheap to top-notch headphones, bluetooth speakers, a Bose system, my car's system, etc.....I can never notice a low end loss. The voicing changes slightly, but I would dare to say that it gets even fatter when the Pugilist is engaged. Given that there is bass boost switch that operates at 100 Hz, I guess that's where it occurs. Absolutely nowhere near to the radio-like sound I got the other night on any device.

For now, I am going to put an LS-2 in the chain and use it to blend in some dry signal. I'll see what happens.
 
SansAmp Bass DI.



If that's the case, how do I deal with it?

Anyways, I checked again the settings at home. I tried listening to the audio signal using again the same bass, same signal chain, same di, listening through all kinds of devices I had at home: from cheap to top-notch headphones, bluetooth speakers, a Bose system, my car's system, etc.....I can never notice a low end loss. The voicing changes slightly, but I would dare to say that it gets even fatter when the Pugilist is engaged. Given that there is bass boost switch that operates at 100 Hz, I guess that's where it occurs. Absolutely nowhere near to the radio-like sound I got the other night on any device.

For now, I am going to put an LS-2 in the chain and use it to blend in some dry signal. I'll see what happens.

What kind of sound board do you guys have? It's possible that your board has the capability to help with the phase issues @agedhorse described.
 
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It's possible that it's a venue (or operator) issue as well.

Whenever parallel signal paths with non-identical processing is used, there exists the possibility of polarity differences between the channels There can also be phase differences between channels depending on the circuitry used. All of this must be fully understood and considered whenever processing signal (ie. summing 2 parallel paths) in this manner. This is why I usually discourage parallel path routing, often the problems (greatly) outweigh the benefits.

Testing and evaluating takes a lot of work. I typically use a scope sync'd to the input signal (I use a low level sine wave) and look at both polarity and phase versus frequency to identify what's really going on. It's not something that can easily be troubleshot remotely.
 
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Polarity is definitely something to consider.

It's not clear to me if you are using two signal paths. But if you are and the polarity of one of the signals changes when you engage you distortion, it will cause the lows to thin out.

It's not unusual for true bypass pedals to flip the polarity when they are engage. IMHO, the solution is to use a pedal that does not flip polarity.

Polarity is not a problem if you are only dealing with one signal path and one sound source. But polarity is a concern when you have one signal path and two sound sources. If the amp is out of phase with the PA, many quality DIs have a phase or polarity switch. Also many decent mixing consoles have a polarity switch on each input. But unfortunately it's more complicated than simply ensuring your amp and the PA are in phase.

It's not unusual for your amp to fight with the PA because of the distance between your rig and the subs. Small subs are omnidirectional, so you are likely to hear lows from the subs coming back at you on stage. After you add several subs in line they start developing pattern control and acting like a dipole...I.E. the sound shoot forwards and backs pretty much equally.
upload_2021-11-1_15-32-5.png


Notice the pattern is different at 50hz
upload_2021-11-1_15-56-0.png


If you are in the rear lobe of the subs you're going to get a lot of interaction between your amp and the subs. Or the sound from the subs may be so loud that your amp is essentially dominated.

In this circumstance you can experiment to see what polarity gives you the best sound on stage. It takes time for sound to travel over a distance. So whether the backwash from the sub is in phase with the sound from your amp or out of phase depends on the polarity of the sound coming from each sound source, the frequency/wavelength, and the distance between the sound sources. Because wavelength varies with frequency, the problem changes as you play different notes. Sometimes flipping the polarity of one signal helps, sometimes it makes things worse, and sometimes it really does not seem matter. You may not be able to perceive a difference or flipping polarity may shift the problem from one frequency range to another.

This problem is further complicated because some audio techs will delay the subs to the back line. The idea here is to try to get the subs and your amp to work together from the audiences perspective. While this tends to improve the sound out front, it can intensify the problem on stage. From your perspective on the stage, when the subs are delayed you add the delay time to the propagation delay. Propagation delay is the time it takes for the sound to travel the distance from the subs to your ears. I.E. delaying the subs makes the sound like the are further away.

Hopefully you are getting the idea that this stuff is somewhat complicated and there are actual physics-based reasons why it's hard to deliver good sound everywhere in a room. The audio tech will generally focus on trying to deliver the best possible sound to the audience. Often there needs to be a compromise because the musicians need enough quality in the sound to do the job. But it's important to understand that if the musicians insist on having perfect sound on stage, it can severely compromise the sound out front. Often if one person gets perfect sound it's because they are taking more than their fair share of the quality.
 
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Ok, to clear things up, it was a single signal path. From "bass -> DI" to "bass -> OD -> DI".

Also, another important thing, forgive me for having not said this, the "low end loss effect" was experienced from the parterre, NOT ON STAGE. I was pretty much in the position whence I took the first picture, must have been 12-15 feet from the subs. When I moved sidestage and got close to my wife to take some pictures (SECOND picture), the earth was shaking LOL.

2021-10-29 21.38.16.jpg


2021-10-29 21.57.38-1.jpg
 
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Then it could have been room boundary effects which are in a sense parallel acoustic paths all delayed from each other slightly. When they combine it creates an effect like a comb filter, and the response will vary by position based on the resulting peaks and nulls.