Disappointed with rig. Should I go Ampless?

[sawzalot]

Ok so, it sounds ok with the bass knob cutting bass frequencies? It’s always amazing to me that we’re willing to go spend vast sums of money on an entire new rig when the “problems” with the current rig can be fixed for free by turning a knob. There is a reason your bass eq can cut frequencies. Just use it for what it’s designed for and get over the fact that you’re cutting bass vs boosting it.

But, being disappointed in general with how the rig sounds is a different thing. I've been ampless for many years. I have an analog setup based around a Mesa Subway Plus preamp, and a digital setup based around a Line6 HX Stomp XL. I really like the flexibility, love using IEM's onstage and love the minimal setup/teardown time at gigs. I've not tried a FRFR speaker on stage or at practice though--practice has always been on headphones since I've been using the pedalboard rig.

So, you may find out that even with an FRFR speaker, your room is just boomy. You might love it. You might be able to fix what's going on by twisting a knob on your existing rig. My advice would be to borrow some of the gear you're considering and see if you can make it sound good before you go spending a ton of money on trying things out (like I did).

 

[digbass]

Darkglass now makes combos so maybe that’s the thing?

 

[jtg]

I have one of these and it's great with confined spaces. Small means high rolloff and has legs to point straight up if you like. I've used it with a quilter 800 for practice and small gig to great effect.

TOOB 12B

 

[makanudo]

Nothing wrong with dialing back the bass and low mids until you are comfortable. I think sometimes we are afraid of cutting bass from a bass guitar but it's entirely ok.

 

[bigdaddybass12]

(Negative comments on this one)
A p bass, which I own one, can be boomy and muddy. I have to back off the mids to clear it up.

 

[Artorias]

Darkglass now makes combos so maybe that’s the thing?

Yes… they’re just so, so expensive

 

[Dbassmon]

There is a huge lesson to be learned from this post regarding getting a good live bass sound.

Be aware of some things that will always cause problems, not matter what rig you have.

Rectangular rooms like your bedroom, studio space and many night clubs pose a problem in that room shape have a resonances at about 200 -300 Hz. That is a characteristic of rectangular rooms and sound waves. That will always make your bass sound bad, non distinct and bloated in the low mids.

Study actual bass sounds on records, both live and studio recordings. Bass guitar, most often, does not have a lot of low end. (genre dependent of course) Why? Because it competes with the kick and toms and makes everything in the low end mushed together. A middy sound will sit better in a mix but you may find it very unrewarding to listen to when the bass is solo'ed. The more instruments you are playing with, the more you want to narrow your frequency spectrum so carve your space in the mix. This is why P-basses, always sound good in a rhythm section; they have no deep low end or extended hi end. It the bloated in the low mids, its the room.

If you want a good live bass sound, roll off some low end. Use a parametric low mid band to find the room resonance, again usually 200 - 300 hz, and roll that off too. If you have a hi-fi bass with extended treble sizzle, calm that down too. You are getting in the way of Cymbals, horn sections and other instruments. Carve out "your sonic real estate." Adding some distortion to your sound adds harmonics and makes a middy sound more articulate in the mix.

One last piece of advice. A recording device, like a zoom, is hugely helpful. What ever you think you bass sounds like to the audience, your sound is very different when interacts with the room, the other instruments. A recording provides tremendous feed back that will allow you improve your sound.

 

[MrAB4003]

Hi all.

I’m currently running a Fender P bass into a pedalboard (tuner, comp, octave, env filter, chorus, delay) then into an Ampeg RB-112 combo. This is after having a couple different Fender Rumble combos, a Darkglass Alpha-Omega 500 into a 2x10, a Quilter Bass Block 800 into a 2x10, etc.

I play at home exclusively now. 75% of the time, I’m playing at fairly low volume in my bedroom (only place I can put my rig is in a corner, but the amp is up off the floor at ear level), the other 25% I’m playing in my daughter’s bedroom while she plays drums (she’s in high school jazz band).

With the exception of the Darkglass rig, my setup is always way too boomy and I’m just disappointed with the tone and how everything interacts. I know the amp being in a corner exacerbates this problem, but it still persists when the amp is on the floor near the middle of a room. I find myself running my bass knob cut down to around 25%. I get the whole adjust with your ears, not your eyes thing.

Am I just over-amped for my situation? Is a better solution to go Ampless (DI/preamp)? If so, how do I monitor what I’m playing (I don’t want to be using headphones 75% of the time and running into a boomy FX return on my combo to play with my daughter on drums)? Is a FRFR/PA a good all-around solution for monitoring and being able to play with a jazz drummer? Studio monitors?

I’m looking at a Darkglass preamp (ADAM or AO Photon) keeping my tuner and delay, or a Line 6 HX Stomp replacing my entire rig.

Any suggestions, insights, experience would be greatly appreciated.

I suggest that you sell your Ampeg RB-112, your cumbersome Darkglass rig, and any seldomly used pedals. Use the money from the sales to buy a 500 watt Darkglass combo amp. This makes sense because you're playing at home 100% of the time and one amp should be enough. And if you do start playing live again, a 500 watt combo amp is lighter and easier to move than your current Darkglass rig.

 

[Kashofa]

Wheels on a cab solves a lot of transportation problems. Sticking with the rig you really like and addressing the transportation might be the answer.

I have a Hartke Kickback 112 and I'm not sure what you started looking for that wasn't in there. I think of it as a reasonably clear and neutral amp. So if you are thinking about going to a full range amped solution or say a powered PA, aren't you just getting another clear and neutral sounding amp?

It's possible you are hearing some frequencies in an untreated room that make the bass sound bad most of the time. A lot of bass amp solutions emphasize low mid frequencies which can make that problem worse. As you hear people say endlessly "the mids make it sit well" and that's seems like the current sound trend with precision basses outfitted with flat wounds run through Ampegs. They are just going to have a lot of low mids, and that can be problematic in a given room.

Switching to a powered PA might make you happy. I have used an EV ZLX-15P and had no complaints. Will definitely keep up with a drummer esp a jazz drummer in a small room. They are still something to lug around so don't know if that meets your needs for portability.

Solving room EQ issues might be handled with a flexible EQ pedal. Empress makes a para eq pedal and the deluxe model includes high and low pass filters. That could be a worthwhile purchase if you are trying to eq out some room artifacts.

As you can see from responses there are so many options here and it's so difficult to know what you think sounds good (me still stuck on why the Hartke wasn't perfect for your needs) that it's quite difficult to suggest the best course of action. One thing I do suggest is trying things out that you can return. I think being able to return things is key to trying everything. Even try that Darkglass combo; you might find out it's fantastic and you just want to get it despite the sticker.

 

[Artorias]

Update:

Thanks to everyone for all the suggestions and knowledge sharing.

I’m set on getting a Darkglass Microtubes Infinity preamp pedal (compression, 6-band EQ, cabsims, presets). I want to go into a PA/FRFR speaker.

That said, I would like to stay under $400 and buy new. Any suggestions?

 

[Kashofa]

I want to go into a PA/FRFR speaker.

That said, I would like to stay under $400 and buy new. Any suggestions?

I mentioned I have used an EV ZLX-15P and it sounds good to me, but these are over your price cap. My guitarist uses a Behringer Eurolive B112D and he's very happy with it. I have not tried it with a bass but I can say they are very light and easy to move.

 

[MarkA]

Update:

Thanks to everyone for all the suggestions and knowledge sharing.

I’m set on getting a Darkglass Microtubes Infinity preamp pedal (compression, 6-band EQ, cabsims, presets). I want to go into a PA/FRFR speaker.

That said, I would like to stay under $400 and buy new. Any suggestions?

I'm not much help, I'm afraid, with powered full-range/PA speakers for electric bass use, but can say that sounding good with guitar is not a guarantee of working well with bass (or handling bass low end in a way that feels satisfying to the player). That said, there are people taking that approach and digging it, so it can be done (and it could be said that some of the more hi-fi or PA-type bass cabs are not too far from that approach, anyway).

If you like the Darkglass preamp voicing and approach (coming from your Darkglass amp), that part of things should work well for you, but I might try playing through the headphone output of your current Darkglass amp or, if you're able, recording through the head's DI and listening back on monitors to get an idea of how you like that type of presentation -- it won't be exactly the same as playing through whichever PA speaker you get, but should give you an inkling.

You will still have to deal with room issues, whatever rig you get, but if you dig the current Darkglass rig in your room, there's a good chance you'll be able to make the pedal and powered cab sound good.

Make sure the pedal will drive the powered cab you're looking at adequately (look at the pedals nominal output level/connections and check them vs. the cab's input sensitivity).

Re. earlier comments about the P-bass sounding boomy (particularly with flats), it can, but a lot depends on the specific bass, pickups, and strings. Not all flats are created the same -- I think that I've found them to vary more than rounds, actually (Thomastik and Sadowsky Blue Label flats I would not describe as boomy, for instance, and I find my P with the latter to be nicely focused in a mix), but you can of course go with rounds (or explore different basses, if a P isn't your thing). Strings can make a huge difference, though.

One last thing that occurred to me: I used one of these (with a Deltalite II 2510 subbed in), years back, on one of the boomiest little bar stages I've played, with good success: https://www.talkbass.com/threads/low-cost-diy-practice-coffeehouse-tweeterless-110-long.736360/

Neither flat nor extended in its frequency response, but did better, on that little stage, to tame the boom and "sit nice" in the mix than even my Hathor (which is a much nicer cab overall) with the port plugged. Also capable of getting surprisingly loud (louder than a Rumble 40, for sure).

Maybe not the avenue you're looking to take, but perhaps someone looking for an inexpensive but capable little cab that doesn't stray too far from 80s-90s bass-sound-aesthetic (not necessarily a bad thing) will find it useful.

 

[FilCo]

Update:

Thanks to everyone for all the suggestions and knowledge sharing.

I’m set on getting a Darkglass Microtubes Infinity preamp pedal (compression, 6-band EQ, cabsims, presets). I want to go into a PA/FRFR speaker.

That said, I would like to stay under $400 and buy new. Any suggestions?

I would look at the Presonus Air10 or Air12, and a stand. I had the 12, and it will do everything you want it to do. Very well built, light, quiet and loud, flexible, etc. It will squeeze right in to your $400 budget.

 

[Artorias]

Update:

I ended up ordering an Alto TS412 to use with a preamp pedal.

Pros: fairly portable, relatively lightweight, great sound and volume (really moves some air and sounds similar enough to a bass cab, just with much wider sound dispersion), great low end, DSP EQ is really helpful.

Cons: this is the dealbreaker for me and why I’m not only returning it, but am looking at other options to monitor… the tweeter gives off a hiss with or without an input and regardless of volume level. I’ve read that any powered speaker will emit some self-generated noise through the tweeter from the power amp, and that each PA will have varying degrees of this. The Alto hiss from the tweeter is easily noticeable up to 6 feet away. Within 10 feet, I can still hear it, but just barely and I’d suspect you’d have to know it’s present to hear it from this distance. I can hear it while playing too…

 

[Stylee Mousse]

Yep. I have some mackie thumps I bought to run my live keyboard rig and they hiss intermittently as any (self generated) noise crosses their poorly implemented gate.

my Yamaha DRX15 would be quieter but has a fan!

works for me but I’m extremely tolerant by TB standards…