Distortion in the house but not on stage...

[Dynacord]

This could as easily go in "live sound" but figure I'll try here. A first time encountering this and wanting to avoid the same in the future. Last weekend I played a large gig and used backline SVT. It went direct from the amp to the board and as it was quick set changes (like 5 minutes) I didn't check the settings but am guessing the amp DI was set post. No mic, no pedals, etc. Bass> cord>amp. Sounded fine on stage but listening to what was in the house later, too much gain for the style. It could have been fine for some other things but this was on some reggae songs where I wanted it clean, if fat. Any thoughts on the cause? I'd understand it if I was getting that breakup on stage. This was a passive bass and I was playing pretty light so I don't think I was hitting the amp very hard. Maybe the house mixer goosed the level as I was low relative to the other acts...

How it sounded in front:



It's most obvious when it gets to the B section about a minute in.

The same from on stage via a random phone video with just the phone picking up the amp stage volume itself - bass sounds pretty good and I don't hear the distortion.



Anyone experienced similar? I've had the opposite before, getting amp overdrive but clean in the house due to DI, which makes sense.

 

[Wasnex]

Why are you worrying about this? This is most likely a one off and falls into the category of beyond your control. It could have been a problem with the amp, the mixer, or how the mixer was set. My guess is the mic lines were split and sent to at least two mixers (FOH and whatever was used to mix the video). Lot's of potential places along the signal path were distortion can creep in.

I listened to most of the first video and thought the bass sounded fine. Didn't really notice any distortion, but I am listening on a laptop.

 

[Dynacord]

Why are you worrying about this? This is most likely a one off and falls into the category of beyond your control. It could have been a problem with the amp, the mixer, or how the mixer was set. My guess is the mic lines were split and sent to at least two mixers (FOH and whatever was used to mix the video). Lot's of potential places along the signal path were distortion can creep in.

I listened to most of the first video and thought the bass sounded fine. Didn't really notice any distortion, but I am listening on a laptop.

Thanks. Just wanting to avoid repeating it if I can - if it was audible on stage, I would have backed off further - and I expect you're correct that it was on the mixer's side (though the bass before sounded fine and that was active). With headphones it definitely has a lot more grind than I want in this situation, though sounds like amp distortion. But, yes, it is what it is.

 

[Wasnex]

Anyone experienced similar?

Definitely. Two occasions on large fest stages in Brussels that I remember clearly.

1. I opted to run through monitors to facilitate a quick changeover. The system was very capable and split into separate monitor and main mixers. The monitor tech was really excited about the drum monitors he had put together. I consisted of 2 or more double 15 subs and some 15+horn cabs. I had my own 15+horn cab that was totally up to the task.

We did sound check and had everything sound balanced. During sound check, the engineer repeatedly asked to crank the drum monitors, but we declined. He did a really good job giving us exactly what we needed to have a great show. However, as soon as the show started, the monitor tech did what he wanted and pushed the level of the drum monitors to the point where they were feeding back with every bass drum hit. They were so loud that I could not hear the bass coming from my monitor, but I had planned for this by leaving a little headroom on my bass's volume control. Of course it wasn't enough.

I tried to get the monitor techs attention, but he appeared to purposely avoid eye contact and was bobbing his head up and down. Obviously he was quite satisfied with the results and really didn't care what the talent needed or wanted.
This gig was in the Grand Place (main square) before a crowd estimated over 10,000. It should have been one of the best gigs of my life, but I remember it as one of the worst.

2. Same series, different year. The bass drum mic fell off it's stand early in our set and made an awful sound with each bass drum hit. I would normally expect one of the tech guys to come on stage during the show and fix this sort of problem. But no one did.

 

[agedhorse]

Sounds like the console input was being overdriven. Not your problem.

The other possibility is that the DI output was taken from the speaker output and the DI input was being overdriven. (If using a DI box)

 

[Dynacord]

Thank you both. Appreciated.

 

[pbass2]

What a fun gig! You sound great. I hear ya about the slighty hairy tone, but I bet it was speaking well out in that big space FWIW.
All I know is after too many of those mystery scenarios when using the DI out on backline amps, I'm always "that guy" asking to swap in my JDI unless they really don't want me to.

 

[agedhorse]

What a fun gig! You sound great. I hear ya about the slighty hairy tone, but I bet it was speaking well out in that big space FWIW.
All I know is after too many of those mystery scenarios when using the DI out on backline amps, I'm always "that guy" asking to swap in my JDI unless they really don't want me to.

It may not be the DI itself, in fact it's probably not (based on my experience).

 

[pbass2]

It may not be the DI itself, in fact it's probably not (based on my experience).

I hear ya, I just like removing that unknown from the equation when I can. Plus I'm old school, I like seeing that dedicated DI box sitting there

 

[agedhorse]

I hear ya, I just like removing that unknown from the equation when I can. Plus I'm old school, I like seeing that dedicated DI box sitting there

Fortunately, DI's on today's quality products aren't like the old school days...

 

[Matt O]

Your tone on stage is fat and dubby, sounds so nice my man. I'll bet it sounded the same out front. My guess is the outfit that was shooting video for the broadcast livestream dropped the ball here. It sounds like a stereo aux out from FOH with all of the dynamics for a huge PA going straight to a camera. Not the best way to do that, especially for the low end. I listened on headphones and I can hear clipping on not just the bass, drums too. That's definitely a broadcast audio screw up. Out front, I'll bet it sounded amazing and dubby with the bins shaking.

Also, that looks like an Ampeg CL, one of the best balanced outputs, imo. Definitely not the amps fault.

 

[shirojiro]

I'm using Sony xm5 headphones.
The bass sounds great.
The whole recording is a little clipped including some of the louder vocals.

But it sounds great.
I'd be psyched if my bass sounded that good out front.

 

[Dynacord]

Your tone on stage is fat and dubby, sounds so nice my man. I'll bet it sounded the same out front. My guess is the outfit that was shooting video for the broadcast livestream dropped the ball here. It sounds like a stereo aux out from FOH with all of the dynamics for a huge PA going straight to a camera. Not the best way to do that, especially for the low end. I listened on headphones and I can hear clipping on not just the bass, drums too. That's definitely a broadcast audio screw up. Out front, I'll bet it sounded amazing and dubby with the bins shaking.

Also, that looks like an Ampeg CL, one of the best balanced outputs, imo. Definitely not the amps fault.

Thanks! I think you're right and it's on the bass drum as well - particularly when hitting together with the bass, which makes sense. While I doubt it was noticed either way by the audience, also good to think that it was most likely limited to the broadcast and not FOH. Certainly fun driving systems that big.

I'm using Sony xm5 headphones.
The bass sounds great.
The whole recording is a little clipped including some of the louder vocals.

But it sounds great.
I'd be psyched if my bass sounded that good out front.

Thank you!

 

[Pocket Dave]

Great tone in that first clip - but yeah, I get what you're saying about dialing the gain to fit the genre.

On the SVT-CL, running the DI post-EQ means you're sending both your gain staging and master level out front. So even if the cab sounds clean onstage, FOH might be getting something hotter or more colored than you think. If you want it clean for all to hear, flip it to pre-EQ and build from there.

Even then, it's not bulletproof. Plenty of variables once it hits the desk - gain structure, EQ choices, all of it. Worth a quick word with the FOH/A1 and telling him exactly what you want coming through the mains.

 

[Dynacord]

Great tone in that first clip - but yeah, I get what you're saying about dialing the gain to fit the genre.

On the SVT-CL, running the DI post-EQ means you're sending both your gain staging and master level out front. So even if the cab sounds clean onstage, FOH might be getting something hotter or more colored than you think. If you want it clean for all to hear, flip it to pre-EQ and build from there.

Even then, it's not bulletproof. Plenty of variables once it hits the desk - gain structure, EQ choices, all of it. Worth a quick word with the FOH/A1 and telling him exactly what you want coming through the mains.

Good info. Sounds right. Thanks. This was one of those quick changeovers where I just plugged in, hit an open E, "yeah, that's ok" and went. Didn't even look at the amp settings - and never even saw the FOH and/or video mixers. I posted the first song as I had the sidestage video for comparison but the gain is stronger on some other stuff like here:



I'll add I had confidence as I've played this same event annually since 2005 and it usually sounds great. i.e.



(that bass is tuned BEAD)

 

[Pocket Dave]

Good info. Sounds right. Thanks. This was one of those quick changeovers where I just plugged in, hit an open E, "yeah, that's ok" and went. Didn't even look at the amp settings - and never even saw the FOH and/or video mixers. I posted the first song as I had the sidestage video for comparison but the gain is stronger on some other stuff like here:

Yeah - definitely leaned a little hot on the gain side.

I'll add I had confidence as I've played this same event annually since 2005 and it usually sounds great. i.e.

Hope this one show didn't have you rethinking every other mix.

(that bass is tuned BEAD)

Actually, the gain worked on that one - really tightened up that low B.

 

[Dynacord]

Hope this one show didn't have you rethinking every other mix.

Ha! No, just going forward

Actually, the gain worked on that one - really tightened up that low B.

And I was probably intentionally pushing the amp harder on that one as well.

 

[FullumMusic]

This could as easily go in "live sound" but figure I'll try here. A first time encountering this and wanting to avoid the same in the future. Last weekend I played a large gig and used backline SVT. It went direct from the amp to the board and as it was quick set changes (like 5 minutes) I didn't check the settings but am guessing the amp DI was set post. No mic, no pedals, etc. Bass> cord>amp. Sounded fine on stage but listening to what was in the house later, too much gain for the style. It could have been fine for some other things but this was on some reggae songs where I wanted it clean, if fat. Any thoughts on the cause? I'd understand it if I was getting that breakup on stage. This was a passive bass and I was playing pretty light so I don't think I was hitting the amp very hard. Maybe the house mixer goosed the level as I was low relative to the other acts...

How it sounded in front:



It's most obvious when it gets to the B section about a minute in.

The same from on stage via a random phone video with just the phone picking up the amp stage volume itself - bass sounds pretty good and I don't hear the distortion.



Anyone experienced similar? I've had the opposite before, getting amp overdrive but clean in the house due to DI, which makes sense.

You're not hearing it in the live performance. You're you're hearing it in the recording of the live performance. It sounds the gain on the bass channel for recording was breaking up a little bit. I don't think it sounded like that coming out the mains.

My guess is there's a splitter at some point and the signal is going to the FOH mixer for the PA Mains, and separately to the video truck/booth/whatever, for the recording and broadcast. What you're hearing in the video isn't necessarily what the audience heard live.

If the phone recording didn't capture it, (as much as you can or can't trust a phone mic), if the phone didn't capture it, the audience didn't hear it out the mains. It was somewhere else in the chain that went to the audio-for-video, not to the mains.

And even then, it sounds like the audio engineer who was handling that side of things caught the mistake partway through the song and fixed the gain stage, because by the end of the song it's breaking up much less. They probably saw the red LEDs lighting up and pulled down the gain & pushed the fader.

And live sound is always a compromise; and live recording is even more compromises.

And even then, that's completely out of your control. It doesn't matter what your setup is, if they cranked a gain knob to distortion on a board somewhere else, it doesn't matter what signal comes in, it's gonna distort. If it's distorting out of FOH, you (or someone in the band, or a friend, or another bassist from the other bands, or a manager, or someone) could hear it and gently ask the engineer to address it. But if the issue is in the video truck, or even the broadcast booth back at the station, nothing you could do to change that on your end. And no way to know until you watch a video of it after the fact.

A lot of words to say: It sounds like you didn't do anything wrong and there's nothing you can really do to prevent this, so don't stress too much about it.

 

[socknroll1]

Bass sounds awesome, I just wish the cameraman gave you some more time! Is that fiesta red? And congrats on playing such a huge event.

 

[Dynacord]

You're not hearing it in the live performance. You're you're hearing it in the recording of the live performance. It sounds the gain on the bass channel for recording was breaking up a little bit. I don't think it sounded like that coming out the mains.

My guess is there's a splitter at some point and the signal is going to the FOH mixer for the PA Mains, and separately to the video truck/booth/whatever, for the recording and broadcast. What you're hearing in the video isn't necessarily what the audience heard live.

If the phone recording didn't capture it, (as much as you can or can't trust a phone mic), if the phone didn't capture it, the audience didn't hear it out the mains. It was somewhere else in the chain that went to the audio-for-video, not to the mains.

And even then, it sounds like the audio engineer who was handling that side of things caught the mistake partway through the song and fixed the gain stage, because by the end of the song it's breaking up much less. They probably saw the red LEDs lighting up and pulled down the gain & pushed the fader.

And live sound is always a compromise; and live recording is even more compromises.

And even then, that's completely out of your control. It doesn't matter what your setup is, if they cranked a gain knob to distortion on a board somewhere else, it doesn't matter what signal comes in, it's gonna distort. If it's distorting out of FOH, you (or someone in the band, or a friend, or another bassist from the other bands, or a manager, or someone) could hear it and gently ask the engineer to address it. But if the issue is in the video truck, or even the broadcast booth back at the station, nothing you could do to change that on your end. And no way to know until you watch a video of it after the fact.

A lot of words to say: It sounds like you didn't do anything wrong and there's nothing you can really do to prevent this, so don't stress too much about it.

Thank you for your detailed reply. I think you're correct.

Bass sounds awesome, I just wish the cameraman gave you some more time! Is that fiesta red? And congrats on playing such a huge event.

Thanks! Yes, Fiesta '66: