Maybe this subject is being taken a little too far? 
Going from bass to quantum physics is a tell tale sign!
:scowl:
Going from bass to quantum physics is a tell tale sign!
:scowl:
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Do sadowsky basses really offer more fender basses?
- Thread starter gumo
- Start date
Maybe this subject is being taken a little too far?
Going from bass to quantum physics is a tell tale sign!
my apologies if my post is a little verbose--i'm just trying to clarify without the benefit of drawing
- Mar 11, 2005
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- Employee - Basscentre Melbourne
Maybe this subject is being taken a little too far?
Going from bass to quantum physics is a tell tale sign!
No lie huh.
Hey smoke. Give me a bit on the reply. You're absolutely right...but only if the strings vibration is exactly circular, which it isn't (my bad for not being super-precise with this point in my post). I'm too lazy to try and explain it right now without the use of a diagram myself.
It'll be up here later though...for you to tear to shreds.
OK, I said Sadowsky rocks......for the quick answer....but going in detail......
I can take my Sadowsky out to any gig and cover any type of music. That bass will cover everything..from slap, pop, fingers, pick, etc. I highly recommend having the VTC (Vintage Tone Control) installed on the Jazz type basses. I own a Metro UV70...and that bass is a joy to play. My Sadowsky spoils me.
I pick up another bass.....and it's just not the same in feel, tone, etc. I've owned many basses, Kubicki, John Suhr, Mike Lull, Nordy. Fender, Spector, Warwick, etc. etc. etc.
The only thing I could ever compare to my Sadowsky is a Nordy 5 string I had, with a Audrere pre-amp & Nordsy Big Splits.
I sold two older Sadowsky's .....and regret that! However,
I did that to (finance) purchase a brand new Sadowsky from my friend Glenn @ Bass Specialties .....and I don't regret that decision one bit.
Fender is not in the same league Sadowsky IMHO.
I can take my Sadowsky out to any gig and cover any type of music. That bass will cover everything..from slap, pop, fingers, pick, etc. I highly recommend having the VTC (Vintage Tone Control) installed on the Jazz type basses. I own a Metro UV70...and that bass is a joy to play. My Sadowsky spoils me.
I pick up another bass.....and it's just not the same in feel, tone, etc. I've owned many basses, Kubicki, John Suhr, Mike Lull, Nordy. Fender, Spector, Warwick, etc. etc. etc.
The only thing I could ever compare to my Sadowsky is a Nordy 5 string I had, with a Audrere pre-amp & Nordsy Big Splits.
I sold two older Sadowsky's .....and regret that! However,
I did that to (finance) purchase a brand new Sadowsky from my friend Glenn @ Bass Specialties .....and I don't regret that decision one bit.
Fender is not in the same league Sadowsky IMHO.
PBass101 has it right. They (vintage) also had thinner fret wire (or have, in the case of my 51 reissue and my 50s P Bass MIM).
I find I prefer the narrower radius and thinner frets. The medium action I use works for me.
OK, here goes. Sorry for the long post.
What I meant by "circular" was the "generic" circle--generally round. The strings actually vibrate more like an oval than a perfect circle. The alignment of the elongated portion of the distance traveled within that oval is dictated by how the string is plucked. Therefor while the string is plucked generally parallel to the fretboard, it isn't plucked exactly perpendicular to the tangential line drawn from the center of the fret board radius circle through the string.
Do the same thought experiment you proposed earlier and instead of imagining the string traveling in a perfect circle, imagine a slightly elongated oval. Overlay that oval on the fretboard so that an imaginary line running through the elongation aligns with the direction the string would be plucked and it should illustrate what I was trying to say.
I understand that action height is mainly determined by technique, and that a very careful player, or one with a very light touch, may be able to achieve an action so low that this movement is completely negligible. However, for a normal touch (and even for the before-mentioned player, although the difference in action he could achieve would be virtually impossible to feel) it is mechanically necessary for the elongated portion of the string vibration on the G side of the neck to be drawn in to a "raised" portion of the fret toward the center of the neck--although, in reality the fret isn't raised there at all. It only seems that way from the perspective of the strings direction of travel.
Likewise, the E string side of the neck will react in the opposite way (toward the center from the other direction) due to the mechanics of how the hand works in relation to the strings (generally…although this is much more dependent on the technique the player employs).
The way the hand must move, and how it dictates the fingers strike the strings, is what causes the difference in achieved action heights. The hand doesn’t act any differently depending on the radius of the board, but the difference in the board causes an obstacle for the string's vibration that would not be there if it was flatter.
The difference in how the fingers attack the strings, from the G string side to E string side of the neck, is also why the E string side can generally due with a proportionately smaller increase in action to compensate for an increased fretboard curvature. The imaginary line drawn through the elongated portion of the oval caused by the pull of the string is generally closer to being perpendicular to the imaginary line drawn from the center of the fretboard “circle” on that side than on the G string side.
Now, this all becomes kind of irrelevant the larger the fretboard radius is. After about 9 ¼ inches, the achievable action is close to - if not - the same no matter how large you go. However since a lot of Fenders have fretboard radii this size or smaller, I think it explains why they can’t be set up with the kind of low action a bass with a very flat fretboard can. A view that seems to have been verified by setting up many Fender, and non-Fender, basses throughout the years.
Shred away.
Sorry for the long post. What I meant by "circular" was the "generic" circle--generally round. The strings actually vibrate more like an oval than a perfect circle. The alignment of the elongated portion of the distance traveled within that oval is dictated by how the string is plucked. Therefor while the string is plucked generally parallel to the fretboard, it isn't plucked exactly perpendicular to the tangential line drawn from the center of the fret board radius circle through the string.
Do the same thought experiment you proposed earlier and instead of imagining the string traveling in a perfect circle, imagine a slightly elongated oval. Overlay that oval on the fretboard so that an imaginary line running through the elongation aligns with the direction the string would be plucked and it should illustrate what I was trying to say.
I understand that action height is mainly determined by technique, and that a very careful player, or one with a very light touch, may be able to achieve an action so low that this movement is completely negligible. However, for a normal touch (and even for the before-mentioned player, although the difference in action he could achieve would be virtually impossible to feel) it is mechanically necessary for the elongated portion of the string vibration on the G side of the neck to be drawn in to a "raised" portion of the fret toward the center of the neck--although, in reality the fret isn't raised there at all. It only seems that way from the perspective of the strings direction of travel.
Likewise, the E string side of the neck will react in the opposite way (toward the center from the other direction) due to the mechanics of how the hand works in relation to the strings (generally…although this is much more dependent on the technique the player employs).
The way the hand must move, and how it dictates the fingers strike the strings, is what causes the difference in achieved action heights. The hand doesn’t act any differently depending on the radius of the board, but the difference in the board causes an obstacle for the string's vibration that would not be there if it was flatter.
The difference in how the fingers attack the strings, from the G string side to E string side of the neck, is also why the E string side can generally due with a proportionately smaller increase in action to compensate for an increased fretboard curvature. The imaginary line drawn through the elongated portion of the oval caused by the pull of the string is generally closer to being perpendicular to the imaginary line drawn from the center of the fretboard “circle” on that side than on the G string side.
Now, this all becomes kind of irrelevant the larger the fretboard radius is. After about 9 ¼ inches, the achievable action is close to - if not - the same no matter how large you go. However since a lot of Fenders have fretboard radii this size or smaller, I think it explains why they can’t be set up with the kind of low action a bass with a very flat fretboard can. A view that seems to have been verified by setting up many Fender, and non-Fender, basses throughout the years.
Shred away.
This discussion is like masturbating with a cheese grater. It's mildly amusing at first, but becomes painful very fast.
That's because I have med light gauge hi beam round core strings (making the B string a bit floppy, but I like the feel/tone)
On my wick it's 1,75 on the B and 1 on the G with med black labels. That's from the 24th fret.
This is Exactly what I've had done to my Marcus Miller V and there's no buzzing whatsoever now.
Of course I did, you said this:
This statement is patently false. It could have lots of things going on and one of the most likely are the frets IME.
All things being equal, this might be true. I'm not an expert.
True colors shown here
Anyway, I set up all my basses with light gauge and very low action and I have yet to meet a bass, radius aside, that I couldn't get where I wanted. I have noticed that a flatter radius will make it seem like the action is low but when I take measurements they are the same as on any other bass I set up.
Dan
i see what you are saying here, thanks for the explanation
if i'm understanding correctly, key to the issue is the idea that one doesn't necessarily pluck a string parallel to the tangent of the fret radius, and this elliptical movement can collide into the portion of the fret nearer the center of the fret, or crown, without necessarily contacting the fret at a point directly under the string on axis with the center of the fret radius--this makes sense to me
--props for conveying this without a diagram, ha
if i'm understanding correctly, key to the issue is the idea that one doesn't necessarily pluck a string parallel to the tangent of the fret radius, and this elliptical movement can collide into the portion of the fret nearer the center of the fret, or crown, without necessarily contacting the fret at a point directly under the string on axis with the center of the fret radius--this makes sense to me
--props for conveying this without a diagram, haOK, here goes.
What I meant by "circular" was the "generic" circle--generally round. The strings actually vibrate more like an oval than a perfect circle. The alignment of the elongated portion of the distance traveled within that oval is dictated by how the string is plucked. Therefor while the string is plucked generally parallel to the fretboard, it isn't plucked exactly perpendicular to the tangential line drawn from the center of the fret board radius circle through the string.
Do the same thought experiment you proposed earlier and instead of imagining the string traveling in a perfect circle, imagine a slightly elongated oval. Overlay that oval on the fretboard so that an imaginary line running through the elongation aligns with the direction the string would be plucked and it should illustrate what I was trying to say.
I understand that action height is mainly determined by technique, and that a very careful player, or one with a very light touch, may be able to achieve an action so low that this movement is completely negligible. However, for a normal touch (and even for the before-mentioned player, although the difference in action he could achieve would be virtually impossible to feel) it is mechanically necessary for the elongated portion of the string vibration on the G side of the neck to be drawn in to a "raised" portion of the fret toward the center of the neck--although, in reality the fret isn't raised there at all. It only seems that way from the perspective of the strings direction of travel.
Likewise, the E string side of the neck will react in the opposite way (toward the center from the other direction) due to the mechanics of how the hand works in relation to the strings (generally although this is much more dependent on the technique the player employs).
The way the hand must move, and how it dictates the fingers strike the strings, is what causes the difference in achieved action heights. The hand doesnt act any differently depending on the radius of the board, but the difference in the board causes an obstacle for the string's vibration that would not be there if it was flatter.
The difference in how the fingers attack the strings, from the G string side to E string side of the neck, is also why the E string side can generally due with a proportionately smaller increase in action to compensate for an increased fretboard curvature. The imaginary line drawn through the elongated portion of the oval caused by the pull of the string is generally closer to being perpendicular to the imaginary line drawn from the center of the fretboard circle on that side than on the G string side.
Now, this all becomes kind of irrelevant the larger the fretboard radius is. After about 9 ¼ inches, the achievable action is close to - if not - the same no matter how large you go. However since a lot of Fenders have fretboard radii this size or smaller, I think it explains why they cant be set up with the kind of low action a bass with a very flat fretboard can. A view that seems to have been verified by setting up many Fender, and non-Fender, basses throughout the years.
Shred away.
i see what you are saying here, thanks for the explanation
if i'm understanding correctly, key to the issue is the idea that one doesn't necessarily pluck a string parallel to the tangent of the fret radius, and this elliptical movement can collide into the portion of the fret nearer the center of the fret, or crown, without necessarily contacting the fret at a point directly under the string on axis with the center of the fret radius--this makes sense to me
There are a lot of variables to this though. Depending on which strings you use; whether they are flexible or not, the inherent tension, how you pluck the string, how hard you pluck it etc.
I wouldn't take either position as the gospel until you have first hand experience.
Dan
duly noted
it's been a while since i've owned a 7.25" radius fender-necked bass, and when i did, i favored a higher action so i can't compare to the low action on my warmoth or roscoe necks that i use now
(i'm just glad we don't have to consider helmhotz motion like a bowed violin string)
it's been a while since i've owned a 7.25" radius fender-necked bass, and when i did, i favored a higher action so i can't compare to the low action on my warmoth or roscoe necks that i use now
(i'm just glad we don't have to consider helmhotz motion like a bowed violin string
)
I don't think you mean a tangential line ... you're talking about a radius. You're really talking about a line orthogonal to that radius and tangential to the arc of the fretboard immediately below the string. Anyway, I think that, even if you pluck the string orthogonally to the radial line you described, the ellipse tends to precess, sometimes resulting in a delayed buzz when the angle of the elipse's major axis rotates to an orientation more nearly perpendicular to the fretboard. Higher action gives a little more room for this to occur without buzzing.
I hate it when someone posts a thread and gets the "Look at the forum search" crap. Maybe people want to be in an active dialogue about a topic and not just read what someone else has said in the past. New members come on board everyday and they may have a perspective that was not present in the older topics found under the search. Participate in the new discussion or not, but please do not tell people to search for it. It comes across as rude and may have a negative effect on new members or the younger bassists on this forum. Just my .02...
