• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Does a reverse headstock add tension?

I've just read the article myself and it is about as incomplete as it is possible to get without having not been written in the first place.

Yes it's true that tension at rest for a given pitch/mass per metre does not change with the extended length, but the feel of the string under manipulation (stopping, bending, vibrato, etc.) absolutely changes. I also suspect but have no proof) that intonation along the entire length will be less of a compromise as, for a given action, pitch sharpening due to stopping/fretting deflection will be less with longer dead lengths.
 
Let me copy a post that I just wrote on another thread, because it's really the same topic. The question was about whether adding extra string length between the bridge saddles and the tailpiece on a short scale bass will increase the "tension" on the strings:

Well, yes and no. The actual tension in the string is the same. The tension is determined by the scale length (the distance between the bridge saddle and the nut), the gauge/construction of the string, and the note that it is tuned to. Adding extra length at either end, between the saddle and the anchor point/tailpiece, or between the nut and the tuner, does not change the tension of the string.

However, adding that extra length at either end does change the sound and feel of the string. It's a factor I call the "snap" of the string, which is often confused with the tension. It works like this: When you pull sideways on the string, as you are plucking it, the string is stretching like a long spring. Then you release it, and it snaps back to straight, overshoots it, and goes into the back and forth oscillation.

When you add extra length to the string at either end, you are making that spring longer. So, you have to pull it farther sideways to get the same feel on your fingertip, because the string stretches easier.

For example, suppose you have two basses, same scale length, same string, tuned to the same note. One has the standard short distance between the bridge saddle and the anchor point. The other has an extra 3" of length back to the anchor point. Again, the actual tension in both strings will be the same.

But, if you pull the string sideways with a force of, say, 1 pound on your fingertip, there will be a difference. With the extended string, you have to pull the string a longer distance to the side to reach that 1 pound load. It's because there's more length of string to stretch.

Now, when you release the strings of these two basses, the extended string has a longer distance to travel to get back to center. The physics of it is that they will both accelerate at the same rate, because the tension is the same. The extended string will take longer to reach center, but it crosses over center at higher velocity and goes farther to the other side before rebounding. This is the effect that I call "snap". Increasing the overall length of the string increases the snap, regardless of the scale length.

How does this affect the sound? Increasing the snap mainly changes the attack curve of the note. It increases the pulse at the beginning of the note, which is why I call it snap. Think of the percussive sound of upright basses. They have a huge amount of snap because of the very long overall string length. The increased pulse can be heard through the amp, and also unplugged.

The funny thing about increasing the snap is that players will describe it in opposite ways. Some will say that the tension is higher, because they hear that extra pop on the note. Others will say that the tension is lower, because the string feels softer to their fingertip. But actually, the tension is exactly the same.

It's the same factor in all those long arguments about reverse headstocks, and how increasing the length between the nut and the tuner of the B string will increase the "tension" of the string to improve the sound, etc. It doesn't actually increase the tension, but it increases the snap. Which may make the B string sound more like the other strings.

Etc.
So, a reverse headstock increases the "snap" on the lower strings, the most on the B, while reducing the snap on the upper strings. That may add more balance to the feel and sound across the strings. But, it's not actually increasing the tension.


But doesn't that theory suppose that the strings is slipping a little on the bridge and nut? I can see the string slipping on the bridge a little but don't think it should on the nut.
 
But doesn't that theory suppose that the strings is slipping a little on the bridge and nut? I can see the string slipping on the bridge a little but don't think it should on the nut.
If mass from the string outside the scale length somehow slipped into the scale length during play the note would be flat. Has anyone established uneven string tension across the three zones in the first place? Seems specious to me.
 
It seems to me that if the string can slip freely over the nut, extra length will lower the spring rate and so the restoring force will be lower. That will lower the frequency of vibration. So perhaps there is some truth, that the static tension must be higher to get the same pitch.

But my guess is that it is also more complicated than this. Having a string that has a "spring reserve" like that may make the solution nonlinear (which of course it is in reality no matter what, anyway, but in this case it'll move it farther from the ideal linear solution). Perhaps different harmonics are affected differently.

Now, if the string can't / doesn't slip in the nut slot, then absolutely nothing changes if the nut->tuner length is increased.
 
But doesn't that theory suppose that the strings is slipping a little on the bridge and nut? I can see the string slipping on the bridge a little but don't think it should on the nut.

Yes, the string will slip slightly at the nut and at the bridge, regardless of the amount of outboard length. There's nothing to stop it from moving. As I calculated above, the amount of movement is a few thousandths of an inch.
 
It seems to me that if the string can slip freely over the nut, extra length will lower the spring rate and so the restoring force will be lower. That will lower the frequency of vibration. So perhaps there is some truth, that the static tension must be higher to get the same pitch.

But my guess is that it is also more complicated than this. Having a string that has a "spring reserve" like that may make the solution nonlinear (which of course it is in reality no matter what, anyway, but in this case it'll move it farther from the ideal linear solution). Perhaps different harmonics are affected differently.

Now, if the string can't / doesn't slip in the nut slot, then absolutely nothing changes if the nut->tuner length is increased.

Well yes, adding the extra outboard length lowers the spring rate. But the fixed item here is the pounds of force that you applying to the string with your fingertip, pulling it sideways. Pulling with the same amount of force, you will be moving it a longer distance off to the side, because of the lower spring rate. When you release it, the pounds of restoring force will be the same, and the acceleration rate will be the same. But, because it has a longer distance to travel, it will be traveling at a higher speed as it crosses over the center.

And yes, the quick extra pulse at the beginning of the note (the snap) will have weird frequency content. Like the initial crack when you hit a drum head. It only lasts a few cycles.
 
Making you....errrrm.....Tense? :D
Yes a little! Especially as I have two identical Strats, one with a reverse headstock and the other, normal.

Despite seeing soooooo many of these types of threads on bass and guit@r forums over the years I have yet to feel, perceive or notice any difference what-so-ever when string bending on either of them. So, I'm staying well out of it!

Peace,

Rob.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fat Freddy
Yes a little! Especially as I have two identical Strats, one with a reverse headstock and the other, normal.

Despite seeing soooooo many of these types of threads on bass and guit@r forums over the years I have yet to feel, perceive or notice any difference what-so-ever when string bending on either of them. So, I'm staying well out of it!

Peace,

Rob.

Are your strats hardtail?
 
Does a fretted string still slip at the nut? To be clear we are talking about from the plucking, not the act of fretting itself.

Of course. You'd have to be fretting with the force of a vise to stop the string from moving in the nut. And again, the amount of movement is very small, a few thousandths of an inch. The flesh of your finger isn't going to stop that.
 
Of course. You'd have to be fretting with the force of a vise to stop the string from moving in the nut. And again, the amount of movement is very small, a few thousandths of an inch. The flesh of your finger isn't going to stop that.
My understanding of tension versus friction does not include infinite micromovements. More like a fault line than a slip and slide. It would be interesting to see data based on real testing rather than to hear theoretical constructs. But then again, we are talking about reverse headstocks so the value of coming up with definitive answers is itself debatable.
 
  • Like
Reactions: El Pelusa
MrW5mUX_zps9l2elbq3.gif
 

Latest posts