Does anyone not enjoy Jaco?

[Quentin MCB]

I'm going to defend @TristanFunky here, in that except for that poor choice of words, he didn't came here with a defensive mindset but showed curiosity and open mindedness. He seems a young player that is still in his formative years, and I totally get the confusion one might feel when discovering Jaco's work, especially if not well versed in jazz.

 

[TristanFunky]

I'm going to defend @TristanFunky here, in that except for that poor choice of words, he didn't came here with a defensive mindset but showed curiosity and open mindedness. He seems a young player that is still in his formative years, and I totally get the confusion one might feel when discovering Jaco's work, especially if not well versed in jazz.

Big fan of jazz, just was always confused by the Jaco stuff. Wanted to know and understand what people saw, that I clearly haven't. Poor choice of words is an understatement haha. I have listened to a lot of good Jaco stuff because of this thread. Anyways thank you!

 

[Quentin MCB]

Check this lesser known work :

That's a record on which he takes the traditional bass role in the jazz trio, still taking solos on each tune. In this context, his jazz solo playing may be more evident. I'm especially fond of the "Days of Wine and Roses" track.

 

[jerry]

Check this lessen known work :

That's a record on which he takes the traditional bass role in the jazz trio, still taking solos on each tune. In this context, his jazz solo playing may be more evident. I'm especially fond of the "Days of Wine and Roses" track.

I always thought Jaco sounded great on that album, it was 1986 and it seemed he was recovering a bit.

 

[factory presets]

Looks like I'll have to kiss goodbye to the set piece battle between good and evil, then.

 

[Quentin MCB]

I'm going to talk a bit more about Donna Lee because I'm really passionate about this stuff, and that's a guilty pleasure of mine. I guess it's hard to appreciate Jaco's rendition of the tune without being familiar with it and its history. The tune is a bebop melody that was written over the chords of a popular song of the early 20th century Back Home Again in Indiana. Bebop players (Charlie Parker & co) invented a knew melodic vocabulary, that relied on fast playing, busy melodies, extended and altered arpegios, chromaticisms and ornementations. Their preferred method was to take popular tunes of the time, tunes that traditionnal jazz musicians already used as a basis for soloing, and put their new vocabulary on the chord changes of these tunes. For a listener of that time, the chord changes would sound familiar, yet the melody avant-gardist. Nowadays it would be similar to taking a Taylor Swift tune and put some shredding arrangement over it. In fact, some modern jazz musician do just that, check Justin Biebe'rs "Baby" by Dirty Loops :

For a today listener, there already is a barrier, in that these tunes that serve as basis are no longer popular, so the chord changes may not sound as familiar as they were in 1940. So if one is interested, he must first familiar itself with that Indiana song. Here are a few versions :

Early vocal rendition of the song (traditionnal american), the chorus (the only part used in jazz renditions) starts at 0:40 :

Typical 1940s' vocal group rendition (chorus starts at 0:40) :

Traditionnal jazz rendition (Louis Armstrong) :

A sung rendition, while being arranged in a typical bebop fashion. The song is easily recognizable in the sung exposition, and during the guitar solo you can see how bebop players would envision improvisation over the tune :

In a totally different style, modern sung version, I don't know how to call this genre (american trad singing ?)
Note that I absolutely hate this style, but it's still interesting to see the different reaches this song has.

Now let's go to Donna Lee. As I said previously, the chords changes are exactly the same, however the melody was replaced with a more convoluted one, using all bebop idioms. The famous Charlie Parker version :
If you are now familiar with the Indiana tune, you can try to sing along its melody over the head played by Charlie Parker (not an easy exercise, I just tried myself ^^).

Before dwelving into Jaco's tune, I think it's also important to familiarize itself with various versions of this tune. Here's a somewhat more "relaxed" approach of the tune :


And there, a blazing fast version ! For me it's totally joyous to listen to this, that's what I dig about bebop.

For a change of instrument, here it's played on guitar and upright bass :
(btw, Niels Henning Orsted Pederson on upright bass, who is I believe the fastest upright bass player of all time). The Donna Lee tune is a testimony of virtuosity whatever your instrument. I guess Jaco started the trend to play it on any instrument to demonstrate your technical ability.

And now, I think that when you are really familiar with Indiana and Donna Lee, hearing Jaco's tune sound totally different, because it doesn't exist in a vacuum anymore. Jaco Pastorius - Donna Lee

Finally, to put that into historical context, Jaco's Donna Lee is the opening track of his debut album. To me, the song is in part here to make several statements :

- That he is a virtuoso, able to play this tune that was still considered to be exclusively for horns, guitar and piano players.
- That he knows the jazz tradition. Like "ok guys, let me play this traditionnal bebop tune as a bass solo, now I'm gonna play a bunch of fusion stuff and no one can put my jazz knowledge into question". It's a big thing among jazz musician, that you may play modern stuff but you need to know the tradition as well to be respected. He tells that he's not some guy coming from a rock or funk background, but a true jazz musician, whatever he might play next. I think the song is not made to cater to a broad audience, but to jazz educated listeners and his fellow jazz musicians.

 

[Watchootognbout]

Add in this version.
The chord changes are quite apparent.

 

[Watchootognbout]

And the original.

 

[gtirard]

Not my thing

 

[Quentin MCB]

Add in this version.
The chord changes are quite apparent.

Perfect example that virtuosity and good taste don't always go hand in hand

 

[Admiral Akbar]

Here we go again...


View attachment 6979173

I’ll get me some popcorn too. The anti-Jaco hordes seem to appear about every 6 months on Talkbass. None of the other legendary bassists, or even near-legendary bassists, dead or alive seem to get the treatment that Jaco does from Talkbass.

All the man did was innovate a style of playing music, write great tunes… he was a MAJOR part on some of the most iconic and influential recordings in jazz and rock as both a leader AND as a collaborator… and he brought a larger than life presence to stages across the world…. All these accomplishments DESPITE dealing with mental health and substance abuse issues while living a relatively short life on this planet...

We are all entitled to our opinions, but—Please let’s cut the man some slack people. Just reflect upon his artistry and commitment to music, and what he helped do for instrument. (Mic summarily dropped.)

 

[Watchootognbout]

Perfect example that virtuosity and good taste don't always go hand in hand

 

[Lowbassman]

This thread INSPIRES!!

It made me remember:

I don't like EINSTEIN! I don't like Niels Bohr, & I don't like that dude Oppenheimer either. He's a freak. The movie was too ponderous as well!
I particularly don't like those 3 dudes Socrates, Plato, and Sir Isaac Newton either!
Yeah, that's right! And the heck with that mofo Galileo anyway. What a heretic.
I just don't! like 'em. That is my opinion and taste and don't try & tell me that their concepts, proofs, ideas, and foundations of thought matter.

I JUST DON'T LIKE THEM, and that is it.

OK?? Understand?? It does not matter to me WHAT their accomplishments have proven to be, and what standards they have set, I DON'T LIKE THEM, and that is it.

Good day, then!

 

[Gluvhand]

This thread INSPIRES!!
View attachment 6981542

It made me remember:

I don't like EINSTEIN! I don't like Niels Bohr, & I don't like that dude Oppenheimer either. He's a freak. The movie was too ponderous as well!
I particularly don't like those 3 dudes Socrates, Plato, and Sir Isaac Newton either!
Yeah, that's right! And the heck with that mofo Galileo anyway. What a heretic.
I just don't! like 'em. That is my opinion and taste and don't try & tell me that their concepts, proofs, ideas, and foundations of thought matter.

I JUST DON'T LIKE THEM, and that is it.

OK?? Understand?? It does not matter to me WHAT their accomplishments have proven to be, and what standards they have set, I DON'T LIKE THEM, and that is it.

Good day, then!

Apples to carrots. Not one of those guys is an artist. I haven’t seen anyone, in this thread, refute science. You’ve got an argument, small, with the philosophers.

 

[Michedelic]

Jaco wasted a boatload of technique playing jazz. Who knows what he could have been if he'd played music people actually care about.

I know, right? If he was alive today he could be playing with Tay-Tay, ‘cause she’s the new Joni.

 

[DJ Bebop]

This thread INSPIRES!!
View attachment 6981542

It made me remember:

I don't like EINSTEIN! I don't like Niels Bohr, & I don't like that dude Oppenheimer either. He's a freak. The movie was too ponderous as well!
I particularly don't like those 3 dudes Socrates, Plato, and Sir Isaac Newton either!
Yeah, that's right! And the heck with that mofo Galileo anyway. What a heretic.
I just don't! like 'em. That is my opinion and taste and don't try & tell me that their concepts, proofs, ideas, and foundations of thought matter.

I JUST DON'T LIKE THEM, and that is it.

OK?? Understand?? It does not matter to me WHAT their accomplishments have proven to be, and what standards they have set, I DON'T LIKE THEM, and that is it.

Good day, then!

 

[DJ Bebop]

I’ll get me some popcorn too. The anti-Jaco hordes seem to appear about every 6 months on Talkbass. None of the other legendary bassists, or even near-legendary bassists, dead or alive seem to get the treatment that Jaco does from Talkbass.

All the man did was innovate a style of playing music, write great tunes… he was a MAJOR part on some of the most iconic and influential recordings in jazz and rock as both a leader AND as a collaborator… and he brought a larger than life presence to stages across the world…. All these accomplishments DESPITE dealing with mental health and substance abuse issues while living a relatively short life on this planet...

We are all entitled to our opinions, but—Please let’s cut the man some slack people. Just reflect upon his artistry and commitment to music, and what he helped do for instrument. (Mic summarily dropped.)

I don’t understand it.
I can’t do it.
I hate it.

 

[Jazzdogg]

What I like most about Jaco is that he opened the door to a world of possibilities on a fretless electric bass; he gave us all permission to dream differently as bassists.

His egomania and OCD are separate subjects from his musicianship, but hard to ignore.

In the end, I made more of an effort to emulate the playing of other bassists, but I will be forever grateful that he opened my ears to the possible.

 

[Lowbassman]

Apples to carrots. Not one of those guys is an artist. I haven’t seen anyone, in this thread, refute science. You’ve got an argument, small, with the philosophers.

"Those guys" "Not artists"
Way to not get the point.

You are Wrong.

All of the above individuals- in their respective disciplines- dealt with absolutes, and the artistry and validity of the music that JP produced on the bass guitar was and is absolute.
Whether you or anyone else likes it or wants to listen to it is not relevant.

Anyone with even a rudimentary grasp of Music theory or an understanding of the mans incredible facility and skill on the instrument would acknowledge the validity of his contributions. Whether they like it or not. Pretty simple really.

No one says you need to like him, or Shostakovich, or Shakespeare, or any other artist, philosopher, or scientist.

However, mathematical proofs, science, philosophy,- and musical composition/ virtuosity deal with absolutes, and Jaco's mastery of the Bass guitar is an absolute.

So are his recordings- They are absolutely brilliant examples of the bass guitar as an instrument in the hands of a Genius/Virtuoso. I'd love to hear an argument against that; really I would. Tell me his compositions and technique were not substantial, go ahead.

Regardless of whether they enjoy listening to him or not. I don't like Wagner; he was an a*****, and I find his work ponderous., but damn, he knew how to compose.
I don't like the Atomic bomb, but guess what?? It blew *** up. big time. Ole Oppy; he made it happen.

So your rebuttal is very insipid and weak. Sorry,.
Have a GOOD day!

 

[Maf]

Jaco could play, no question. Does it move me? Only to switch it off asap. I can't stand that kind of music so I can't get into his playing. But he can play. And he does inspire a lot of people to get into bass and make progress in their playing.

That's the thing... you can be really good at something and still not be liked by everyone.