FWIW I use mine vertical, but only because it takes up less floor space on cramped stages and puts my amp within reach.
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Does it really matter? (sound engineering content)
- Thread starter Visirale
- Start date
FWIW I use mine vertical, but only because it takes up less floor space on cramped stages and puts my amp within reach.
+1. Like many other things (maple versus RW boards, neck through versus bolt on, etc., etc.), the primary driver of the tone difference probably is due to a complex combination of other things.
As you say, of course when you get a speaker up towards ear level, things are going to sound a touch different, no matter what.
Also, many that go from a more traditional bass box design to a 'vertical array' are comparing different brands of cabs, so again, there's a LOT more going on here.
That being said, the effect clearly exists. I'm just not sure its as meaningful as some make it out to be with regards to EB backline amplification.
You are. Sorry, but the entire PA business wouldn't shift its focus from horizontal setups to line arrays the way it did if there wasn't something to it. And I have experimented with placement, and even if I move my top cab off center of the bottom cab by as little as an inch, the dropoff in bass response is a noticeable difference to me.
Drop-off in bass response is not a symptom of comb filtering, as far as I understand it, at least not when speakers are close together.
I do agree, for more programmed, full range material (i.e., when you have cymbals, keyboards, bass drums, etc., etc. all coming through the same source), these sort of things have a meaningful impact.
We've all been down this road before. If it works for you, it works for you. And if you hear meaningful drops in bass frequency when you move a cab an inch off center, then I feel sorry for you. That sort of precise hearing must be a curse when performing.
billfitzmaurice
Commercial User
- Sep 15, 2004
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Comb filtering is very much over-emphasized as the primary fault with horizontally aligned drivers. Far worse is the narrowing of the angle of dispersion in the midrange, literally halved with drivers horizontally rather than vertically aligned. If you read the line array link through:
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you'll note that pro-touring sound companies have reduced their cab count by as much as 75% using line arrays versus cluster. This is mostly attributed to the -3dB rolloff of the nearfield condition, and for the most part wrongly so. About a third of the cab reduction results from the cabs not fighting each other. Horizontal cabs/drivers interfere with each other, cancelling out much of their output, while narrowing midrange dispersion. Another third is the result of the narrower vertical dispersion of a taller source, which puts more sound in the audience, less on the floor and ceiling. Eliminating comb filtering improves the quality of the sound, but vertical placement of cabs/drivers also makes them work more efficiently, so you can use less of them.
If you want to experience comb filtering just play some white or pink noise through your speakers and walk around.
As you walk around the speakers, or move your head you'll probably hear some swooshing.
As you walk around the speakers, or move your head you'll probably hear some swooshing.
I've done this with home stereo speakers and I know what you're talking about. I've definitely heard this. I just don't notice it when I'm two feet from my blasting cab on a tight stage with a drummer, four horns, vocals, etc.
Your fundamentals normally only go to ~300Hz range putting 2nd Harmonic at 600Hz, I think comb filtering won't be as noticeable for a lot of electric bass unless your boosting your treble an awful lot, or you have some stupid speaker spacing or funny boundary problems.
It's all true, but at the end of the day, you put the cabs where they fit on stage, and in a smaller bar that may be "wrong", but you still do it cuz you have to............
OK to mess with it if you want to, but mostly I'd leave obsessing over it to the "PA dweebs".... A perfect speaker setup and a lousy mix is no better than bad speaker setup..... a fact some "dweebs" have yet to learn.
OK to mess with it if you want to, but mostly I'd leave obsessing over it to the "PA dweebs".... A perfect speaker setup and a lousy mix is no better than bad speaker setup..... a fact some "dweebs" have yet to learn.
+1, I think in the begining of line array for PA, it was more of a "look, we can do this, it does work", and now you have it available. More of the focus now is purly efficiency. Truck pack. Boxes need for a tour greatly reduces the cost of the sound companies, plus its a compition to get the best sounding line arrays for the best price. Vdosc was the first real player, now there are dozens.
To the average bass player, like me, its a non issue. IMO.
I don't know the science behind it and can't explain it well, but I did notice a BIG improvement in sound after going from my 2-10 cabs stacked the usual way, to stacking them vertically.
The usual dead spots at points away from my amp were gone, and the overall sound of my amp seems clearer and fuller. The sound up close to the amp now sounds more similar to the sound at a greater distance away. Any room seems to be more evenly "filled" with sound.
There's alot more to the sound of a bass than just the lowest frequencies, too. Mids are what shape the sound of a bass the most.
The positive effects of a vertical driver arrangement are even more noticeable with my upright bass.
The usual dead spots at points away from my amp were gone, and the overall sound of my amp seems clearer and fuller. The sound up close to the amp now sounds more similar to the sound at a greater distance away. Any room seems to be more evenly "filled" with sound.
There's alot more to the sound of a bass than just the lowest frequencies, too. Mids are what shape the sound of a bass the most.
The positive effects of a vertical driver arrangement are even more noticeable with my upright bass.
Most of the time you're absolutely right, but knowledge is never bad, and you WILL run into these issues sometime. Trust me. If you know about it, maybe you can do something about it. Most of the time it's an issue for the PA, but sometimes the bass rig can contribute to it.
Not sure why it's considered a bad thing to consider this stuff. All major PA rigs and home theater systems do it vertically for a reason. Doesn't mean you have to use a PA system for a bass amp or sell your favorite 410. But at least you'll get a better idea of what's going on when it happens. It's going to happen occasionally no matter what kind of rig you use because of reflections and stuff. And in the end, we're all going to die.
D
drpocket
Guest
Wow, cool!! I just stacked up my 2x10 avatars vertically and ,man, it does make a difference. Much more articulate.
I see some advantages to stacking vertically like the whole rig uses less floor space and "air" space is at a premium while floor space is usually at a minimum. AND, I can hear myself much better than having both cabs blowing at the back of my knees.
I have been stacking horizontally and angling the top up but the vertical stack seems better. I will do this at the next gig and check back in later.
I see some advantages to stacking vertically like the whole rig uses less floor space and "air" space is at a premium while floor space is usually at a minimum. AND, I can hear myself much better than having both cabs blowing at the back of my knees.
I have been stacking horizontally and angling the top up but the vertical stack seems better. I will do this at the next gig and check back in later.
alexclaber
Commercial User
I thought this point was well worth repeating!
If you don't believe it, turn your guitarist's 2x12" or 2x10" combo onto its end and prepare to be amazed!
Alex
This has been my experience. The biggest improvements for me happen out in the room, not so where you'd notice it so much on stage other than the effect of having speakers closer to your ears if you're set up tight. Out in the audience the bass does sound clearer and more even across the room, there's much less of a hot spot in front of the cab. In a small place the improvement is a little less because you don't have to get too far off center before walls and other boundries start messing with things. Tone is all subjective but I noticed that going vertical made the sound a little cleaner and maybe not so thick up close, something that may make one think they've lost some of their tone or became more "modern". Took a little getting used to but the overall sound mix and dispersion was better out front where the people are. Get used to it and then when you go back to your regular 410 it won't be the same. You can get it to sound like 80something% of what you want, just not all of it.
This helps most in situations where the audience actually hears your rig, which is a lot of bass players. With real, proper PA support, the advantage of vertical in that situation (which will likely be a little bigger stage) is that dispersion helps the other folks in your band hear you if you setup facing it sideways across the band. Helps if your monitors can't handle bass.
D
drpocket
Guest
Well, I said I would get back to you guys re: stacking my 2 x 10's on end at a gig.
Man, what a difference. The drummer demanded that I do that forever. She said she could her every note. Same with me and when the rhythm section is happy then every one is. The overall effect was that I didn't have to "share" my cabs, so to speak, by turning them away from me. I could face them forward and stand right in front of them and still everyone could hear me especially the drummer being in the normal position on stage.
I have played bass for over 40 years now and I guess there is always something new to learn.
Thanks!!!!!
Man, what a difference. The drummer demanded that I do that forever. She said she could her every note. Same with me and when the rhythm section is happy then every one is. The overall effect was that I didn't have to "share" my cabs, so to speak, by turning them away from me. I could face them forward and stand right in front of them and still everyone could hear me especially the drummer being in the normal position on stage.
I have played bass for over 40 years now and I guess there is always something new to learn.
Thanks!!!!!
Well, I am no genius, but I have noticed more low-end coming from my schroe 1212R when its laid horizontal vs vertical. Its not a HUGE difference but it is significant to be noticeable. I am guessing Jorg designed his cabs to be laid horizontal for a reason.
That said, I usually have my 1212R vertical because *I* can hear it better that way.
That said, I usually have my 1212R vertical because *I* can hear it better that way.
billfitzmaurice
Commercial User
- Sep 15, 2004
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- Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
What you've heard is less midrange and highs, which subjectively seems like more lows. Cab orientation only affects frequencies above 200 Hz or so.
