And Humpty Dumpty always said "When I use a word, it means exactly what I want it to mean, nothing more or less."
Where did you learn your definition of mensure? Because every source I've been able to find defines it differently.
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Double Bass Double bass sizing
- Thread starter Conner Nagel
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And Humpty Dumpty always said "When I use a word, it means exactly what I want it to mean, nothing more or less."
Where did you learn your definition of mensure? Because every source I've been able to find defines it differently.
And Humpty Dumpty always said "When I use a word, it means exactly what I want it to mean, nothing more or less."
Where did you learn your definition of mensure? Because every source I've been able to find defines it differently.
I'm not sure I have an answer to this question. It's just that all the random sources I have read over the years used the word in such a way that it clearly referred to scale or vibrating string length, not the end-to-end length of the string.
Is it the original source, the Ur-usage you are looking for? That may be possible to ferret out, but it will take some deep drilling. You may have to look into some primary source documents going back as far as the sixteenth century.
I didn't think I had been confusing. If you look above, I never said mensure had been used to describe the entire string length. Instead, I clearly and consistently said "nut to bridge." Is that understandable?
And no, I do not seek any "ur-usage." Instead, I would imagine you - or anyone else - could identify one of those many "random sources [you] have read" which "all" use the term differently from what I have been able to identify, and from what my wife was taught in violin-making school.
I acknowledge the possibility that the multiple pretty well-respected sources I quoted and the instructors at my wife's school might be mistaken. If they are, it should be possible to cite something other than one's personal understanding or recollection. My wife and I have not conducted an exhaustive review of her entire library, but we did not identify any source defining the term as you do.
I recognize that this is a ridiculously minor point, and I do not intend to insult or offend anyone, and I probably should not continue this discussion which many/most likely consider unimportant.
I personally have never used mensure to reference anything other than nut to bridge distance, and I have said this. I in fact agree with you. I spent a lot of time trying to help you solve a conundrum -- the first usage of mensure to define nut to bridge string length. Clearly I misunderstood you; apologies tendered. And FYI, the term mensure seems most closely related to fencing and not musical instruments at all. Etymologically the word traces back to the Latin for "measure," which is what fencing and luthierie in this context are about.
But I agree this should end here. I see no possibility of consensus being reached, and I agree with you that we don't want the conversation to turn "chippy."
It's all good. Reminds me of one of my other interests - gardening. There is a reason folk use the Latin binomials, because what you call bluebells might not be the same flower I call bluebells. Precision and agreement regarding definitions and usage aids effective communication and lessens possible misunderstandings.
Violin makers are ridiculously precise in their measurements, so I'll just add that the "string length" from bridge to nut is not the same as the "distance" between them on a plane parallel to the instrument's plates. Pythagoras and all... So to a luthier, I suspect it would well matter whether one was referring to one or the other. My suspicion is that luthiers measure the "distance", because instruments are not strung as they are in the process of being built. "String length would be affected by the height of the bridge, and likely other factors.
I'm surprised the makers and others who have used "mensure" around here have not chimed in. I suspect I am not tho only reader of these forums who is/was not entirely clear as to what was meant by the term.
And if you think I'm a pain-in-the-a$$ here, you should hear my wife and me criticize the grammar and word choice in the morning paper!
Violin makers are ridiculously precise in their measurements, so I'll just add that the "string length" from bridge to nut is not the same as the "distance" between them on a plane parallel to the instrument's plates. Pythagoras and all... So to a luthier, I suspect it would well matter whether one was referring to one or the other. My suspicion is that luthiers measure the "distance", because instruments are not strung as they are in the process of being built. "String length would be affected by the height of the bridge, and likely other factors.
I'm surprised the makers and others who have used "mensure" around here have not chimed in. I suspect I am not tho only reader of these forums who is/was not entirely clear as to what was meant by the term.
And if you think I'm a pain-in-the-a$$ here, you should hear my wife and me criticize the grammar and word choice in the morning paper!
If only there were a business model where you could charge hundreds of dollars per hour, to debate the meaning and combination of words, and reconfigure variations thereof to fit the needs of your client! Sorry, I’m frustrated this morning that after 45 years of studying music, there is a shortage of readily available transcribed melodic content to work with..
Time to make some beautiful music this weekend!
Time to make some beautiful music this weekend!
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I PROMISE - this my last post on this subject - which seems to be of no interest to anyone other than me!
I previously mentioned the lack of google hits on "mensure". I tried again w/ "mensur string instrument" and got some results. Unfortunately, they do not seem to show a general acceptance of one particular definition for the word.
Some describe mensur as a ratio of neck length to partial body length:
Useful Measurements
TIPBOOK - Cello
Others - including Gollihur and at least one string maker, define it as vibrating string length:
Pirastro - Strings Handmade in Germany since 1798
PARTS, GLOSSARY of Upright Bass terms
I even ran across one that seems to define it on upright bass as the length to the heel - as in "a D mensur", but that seems anomalous:
Gunnar Damsgaard 5 String 3/4 Double Bass 1995 Bass For Sale
I searched both spellings - mensur and mensure. Mensur yielded 213k hits, mensure 166k. I suspect a good number of the "mensure" hits included cites for "mensur" and "measure", which suggests to me that "mensur" might be a more commonly used spelling. But there certainly is no great agreement, and there might be geographic/historic preferences.
I did not make any attempt to count, but I got the impression that the greatest proportion of folk both spelling "mensure" and defining it as the vibrating string length appeared in the bass community, such as these forums and other bass blogs/posts.
So, this time I PROMISE this is the last I will say on the topic of mensur[e]. I hope at least someone finds my digression modestly interesting.
I previously mentioned the lack of google hits on "mensure". I tried again w/ "mensur string instrument" and got some results. Unfortunately, they do not seem to show a general acceptance of one particular definition for the word.
Some describe mensur as a ratio of neck length to partial body length:
Useful Measurements
TIPBOOK - Cello
Others - including Gollihur and at least one string maker, define it as vibrating string length:
Pirastro - Strings Handmade in Germany since 1798
PARTS, GLOSSARY of Upright Bass terms
I even ran across one that seems to define it on upright bass as the length to the heel - as in "a D mensur", but that seems anomalous:
Gunnar Damsgaard 5 String 3/4 Double Bass 1995 Bass For Sale
I searched both spellings - mensur and mensure. Mensur yielded 213k hits, mensure 166k. I suspect a good number of the "mensure" hits included cites for "mensur" and "measure", which suggests to me that "mensur" might be a more commonly used spelling. But there certainly is no great agreement, and there might be geographic/historic preferences.
I did not make any attempt to count, but I got the impression that the greatest proportion of folk both spelling "mensure" and defining it as the vibrating string length appeared in the bass community, such as these forums and other bass blogs/posts.
So, this time I PROMISE this is the last I will say on the topic of mensur[e]. I hope at least someone finds my digression modestly interesting.
A fascinating yet tedious discussion... but hey it’s the DB side of TB!
Here’s a quote from an email exchange I had with Barrie Kolstein when shopping for my travel bass. He subsequently used this word in our in-person convo when referencing the other “full size” Lee Rocker they had I stock :
“I am happy to discuss with you the options of these basses including a currently available solid neck Busetto that has the original 39" mensure”
Here’s a quote from an email exchange I had with Barrie Kolstein when shopping for my travel bass. He subsequently used this word in our in-person convo when referencing the other “full size” Lee Rocker they had I stock :
“I am happy to discuss with you the options of these basses including a currently available solid neck Busetto that has the original 39" mensure”
Research not-withstanding, it is how our community seems to use that word, consistently. I'm not a linguist and haven't done the research, but if you say "mensure" to a DB luthier, shop, or most players, they will all understand it to mean the distance from the nut to the bridge. If the imprecision of that makes you uncomfortable, feel free to say "string length" or "vibrating string length" or "distance from the nut to the bridge", they should all work too.
Not that I'm an expert, but I'm sure we can agree that our language is continually evolving. Words can get given new meanings that may obscure the original ones. 'Awesome' and 'moot' sure don't mean what they did originally. Mensur(e) is likely the same, I'm guessing...
Just for fun:
Mensura. In old English law, a measure.
Black's Law Dictionary 4th Ed--72
In my mind the English language is de-volving, i.e. words are becoming less specific, vague and more distant from their original associations.
Aside from the above, my favorite pet peeves are acronyms that are not defined once at the beginning of a text so that it is clear to all readers WTH it is that's being discussed.
(end of rant)
And I will assume that I measure from the south side of the nut to the north side of the bridge, where the strings break on each end.
Mensura. In old English law, a measure.
Black's Law Dictionary 4th Ed--72
In my mind the English language is de-volving, i.e. words are becoming less specific, vague and more distant from their original associations.
Aside from the above, my favorite pet peeves are acronyms that are not defined once at the beginning of a text so that it is clear to all readers WTH it is that's being discussed.
(end of rant)
And I will assume that I measure from the south side of the nut to the north side of the bridge, where the strings break on each end.
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You are making some excellent points, but could you please define the acronym "WTH"?
