Double Bass Dual-channel-preamp?

[filco1]

Can anyone help me to find my dream-2-channel-acoustic-preamp (maybe with tubes)

 

[jtlownds]

The d-TAR Solstice will give you everything you want, except the 48v phantom power. No tubes.

 

[filco1]

thanks, i still know the Solstice, want some more, much more high end if possible, no phantom is also bad...

 

[drurb]

I think it'll be easier if you give up on the tubes. As one versed in both ss and tube circuitry, if your goal is "my bass, but bigger," then tubes offer you no substantial advantages (other than the fact that they're fun) and carry some substantial disadvantages. I'd be happy to go into detail, if you wish.

When you say that you want "much more high end," it leads me to believe that you aren't necessarily looking for fidelity but are looking for "effects." Is that the case? Are you looking for a "voiced" pre-amp?

What are you after? Perhaps, with a bit more detail, folks here can guide you more effectively.

 

[Ric Vice]

Can anyone help me to find my dream-2-channel-acoustic-preamp (maybe with tubes)

Filco 1

The Schertler Yellow Blender is Dual Channel Blender with 48v Phantom, and Class A Pre Amp. It runs $639.00.

Link Removed

I own a Headway EDB-1 it cost half of what the Schertler costs, but it only offers 18volts to the Phantom, with independent Channel Volumes, but a single EQ section.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Ric

 

[Chris Symer]

or are you thinking more like this...? http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-...-box-stereo-channel-strip?condition=used#used

 

[Jazzdogg]

I seem to remember recent news about a new two-channel pre-amp from Acoustic Image that looked promising; I think it was NAMM coverage by the folks at Bass Gear magazine. I don't recall enough of the details to confirm whether it checked every box on your wish list, but it's worth checking into further.

Here's a photo from bassgearmag.com

 

[filco1]

hey guys, thanks for your responds...

@ drurb: yes, let's go deeper (sorry my minimal descriptions)

@ Chris: thats a nice tool... but also the price is "hot" but yeah this direction

@ Ric: this two tools are nice but i need more... I have both but...

-EDB-

yes he do summing and have nice features but the EQ is only for both signals (can not use this, will sell it again)

-Yellow Blender-

It's also a nice "toy" a little swiss-army knife that's right, but a toy-version. i like the approach of the schertler gear but the yellow blender is not accomplished now. in my opinion it needs some updates. the quality is not that high level standard that schertler does in the past. sure, the signals and routing possibilities are nice, but the potis are shizzle to handle and the 48V, Phase-Shifting,... knobs are cracking heavy loud while pushing it. (that absolutely is a no go in any gear live or studio situatuion) so for me it sucks electronically and mechanically. I will not sell it again right now, but i will do it when the better days come.

sorry i don't want to appear arrogant, but i tried a lot of gear... maybe i'm complicated or i have to high standards but for me the sound is almost that important than time, intonation etc...

My Equipment is:

- Mic: Schoeps MK 41G (it's a really good mic and gives me the real sound of my bass)
- Ehrlund pickup with pre (it's the best pickup for me but I use it only if i have to use it)
- RNP Preamp (i like this little box, but it's only a preamp with 48V and phase-switch not more)
- Yellow Blender (i use it when i have to be more flexible...)
- Allen & Heath ZED10FX (it's a really cool mixer but i little bit to big and heavy)

My Sound-Philosophie:

Playing that much acoustic as possible! But it's not always possible. So i want to amplify my bass as it sounds acoustically. (who not?) For being more flexible I use pickup and mic. At a certain level, the mic gives up or can used only a little bit. In this situation I need to have the option to adjust the pickup signal carefully and precisely. So for that i need the function of a good parametric EQ. The mic signal I will never adjust in tone, only in volume because different mic-placing on the bass is sound control enough.

Yes the Ehrlund sounds great but not in every situation or room... like speakers also not do. I can not always fitting a new position on my bass on every different gig. I figured out my sweet spot on my bass and i want to leave the pickup there.

Solution:

I'm really happy with the RNP but I would like to loop in an EQ on the pickup-channel and i would like to combine both channels. Looping in an EQ ist not that difficult (any recommendations for EQ) Maybe the EDEN WTDI, SummitAudio FeQ-50, SPECK ASC,... Combining the two channels is more complicated... how would you do? Mergebox? TRS-Line-Passive-Combiner with resistors (with loss)...

I'm sorry for that much informations...

what do you think about the summit audio 2ba-221 Preamp?

http://www.summitaudio.com/2ba221.html

it looks very flexible, yes without EQ, who got it?

 

[Ric Vice]

Filco 1

I'm very surprised to hear that the Schertler Yellow Blender isn't a high quality pre amp. That's a very expensive device to have all the problems you have described. The front end of your signal chain is "state of the art" so IMHO you can't really improve on the Ehrlund and Scheops. You didn't mention what kind of amplifier (if you use one) you connect to. I'm very fortunate to have a Walter Woods amp, and combined with the Ehrlund, I have no need to use a mic or blender. Personally, I found no benefit from combining my DPA 4099 with the Ehrlund. I only send the mic FOH at larger venues. You might try to find someone with a Walter Woods Amp and test it out. They are expensive, but I've had great response using one.

Ric

 

[drurb]

...So i want to amplify my bass as it sounds acoustically. (who not?)

This is the key for me. As to your question, there are players who don't necessarily wish to achieve faithful amplification, but who are enamored with "effects."

I certainly understand that you don't want to use poorly designed and built equipment. Many products on the market are basically "toys" as you say.

You seem to gravitate toward pricey equipment which, much of the time is certainly of very high quality. I think, however, that it's important to separate what might be desirable for studio work where reproduction is the end product vs. what is required for live amplification or reinforcement.

For studio work, a clean, well-balanced, noise-free signal is paramount. Not so much at a live performance. In a live setting, signal-to-noise ratio is a very practical consideration in the sense that many sins are not only forgiven, but are not and often cannot be noticed. On the bandstand, in combination with other instruments and considering room and audience noise, it really doesn't matter if the quiescent output of your pre-amp is 10 dB greater than what would be considered "studio grade." No human is likely to hear the difference even if he/she were focusing on it and, let's face it, no one will be.

This is not an argument for using bad or cheap equipment. Far from it. This is an argument about practicality and requirements.

I promised more detail regarding tubes vs. ss if you wanted it and it seems you do. The internet rages with tubes vs. ss arguments, most of them being made by people who have no idea about what they speak. I'm not going to defend to anyone what I'm about to say. It's based on decades of hands-on experience and formal, professional knowledge. Sorry for the sensitivity.

When discussing tubes vs. ss, it's really best to separate three areas of use: 1) music reproduction (home "hi-fi"); 2) studio recording; 3) live sound reinforcement.

I'll consider only #3. The discussion is different for pre-amp applications vs. power-amp applications. I'll deal with the former, given that's what this is about. Here we go...

If one wishes to amplify the acoustic sound of a double bass as faithfully as possible, then that implies the goal is a device that will act, as the closely as can be reasonable achieved, as a "straight wire with gain." One would want to minimize distortion and noise. Now, unless one would be over-driving the pre-amp, vacuum tubes offer no advantages. People will speak about the distortion profile of tubes and how, when driven outside of their linear ranges, they are more "forgiving" than are ss devices. That can be true (and it's a consideration in the studio, by the way) but there is absolutely no reason that a pre-amp used to amplify the DB in a live setting need be driven anywhere near its limits. Under such circumstances, ss devices will typically produce less distortion and noise. We can get into esoteric arguments about slew rates, etc. but ss devices will typically win in that arena as well.

Ah, but you've heard that tubes have a "warm sound." As soon as one says that, then one is talking about a pre-amp that does not have a flat response and which is "voiced." That's a matter of design and that voicing can also be built into ss devices. It's fine if that's what one prefers but it violates the goal of faithful amplification of the sound of the instrument.

Finally, there's reliability. Although a tube pre-amp can be extremely reliable and operate for decades (perhaps without a change of tube(s)), when it comes to being able to count on a device "on the road," I'll take the well-designed ss device. Admittedly, the difference here might be negligible.

That's my take.

 

[filco1]

thanks for your responds, it's great to talk with people who know what they are talking about.

@ Ric

The idea of the yellow blender is quite good and the preamp and the signal-processing is also high quality. But there are this points that IMO have to be improved. I will use it for now, because there is no better tool in the moment for me. After all it's not that expensive if you think that you got two channels, with tone controls and a loot of rooting possibilities.

The question about the amp is also that big like the question of this preamp-question-thing. I usually used a lot of full range speakers. But for now i'm building my own speaker system with a hypex class d modul and two separate 1x10" cabs. For me it makes sense to have two speakers for better placement and spreading the sound on the bandstand. So I can use one speaker for me and the other for the band and i don't have to power them that loud... I used the RCF art 310A for a long time. Sometimes but not much i used the Yamaha MS60 or two of them. (this speakers sounds really warm and round "without tubes" but don't have that much power) and for the last two years i used a JBL EON 510. this was a compromise between lightweight and sound. The EON 510 is only 7,7kg / 17lb. Yes I don't have a car so it has to be portable. The Walter Woods sounds interesting, never tried that.

@ drurb

You are totally right with everything. I don't want to overstate with the gear. For live application it's really not necessary to have that Rolls-Royce high end stuff. But it's nice to have solid tools and that is what i'm looking for.

Sorry that i brought up the word tubes. It was not meant that way. The summit audio preamp looks interesting anyway, with or without tube. Maybe the ss-output sounds better. And I don't looking for tube- or any distortion on my bass. For me, the whole hype about this tube-thing is a piece of Hipster-Stuff. When a device is produced well it's well made and maybe sounds good for me or not. (with or without tubes, if it's new, vintage, retro or what else is hip) Maybe the guitar-section is more into that tube-thing and maybe it's legitimate. You see I also use this hypex class d module which would be anti-tube-action Of corse it's also a compromise but it's only 1kg / 2.2lb and gives me 2x400W on 4Ohm and sounds quite well. It's a PSC2.400 with DSP filter-section, so i can adjust the frequencies of the cabs which is funny but maybe suitable. It's not finished now but i built some prototypes and it's going in the right direction.

What kind of setup do you use?

 

[Jeff Bonny]

Another option might be to fill a multi slot [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] with a combination of three or four units of the dozens (hundreds?) available that would fulfill your requirements. Not the cheapest route but in the long run a very flexible studio quality solution you could tailor to your exact needs.

 

[filco1]

jeffbonny, that's a really nice idea! And for live situation i don't need to add the highest low end gear, it can be moderat on price...

 

[drurb]

...For live application it's really not necessary to have that Rolls-Royce high end stuff. But it's nice to have solid tools and that is what i'm looking for.

Seems we're in sync!

...This is not an argument for using bad or cheap equipment. Far from it. This is an argument about practicality and requirements.

 

[thebandcircle]

Walter Woods can be used as a preamp, and sweet tone also..

 

[Mark Gollihur]

An EA Doubler amp head has everything you're asking for except the built-in compressor (but has an EFX loop) and tubes... I own one myself.

 

[drurb]

An EA Doubler amp head has everything you're asking for except the built-in compressor (but has an EFX loop) and tubes... I own one myself.

...plus a power-amp section.

 

[Mark Gollihur]

Yes, I neglected to mention that. ;-)

 

[RedMoses]

WHen i used to switch between Electric and EUB i used a Radial Tone bone to level match and Pre. Years later I no longer play the EUB but i still use the tone bone, its versitile and sounds fantastic.

 

[filco1]

The EA doubler looks really nice and can also be used as a preamp too. How is the vent on the back? Does it blow loud?