E-String will not intonate Yamaha BB

[Phenometron]

Hi,

This might be my first post in the forums, I don't know, but I have been reading TalkBass for years. Thanks for all the info.

I've owned close to 20 basses and I have been doing my own setups for 23 years. Last October, I got one of the new Yamaha BB reissues. It's a great bass, but I cannot get the E-string to intonate (and have been messing around with on and off for months). First time I've ever had this problem on a bass.

The relief and action are set to essentially Fender factory specs with a ruler and under-string radius gauge - very middle of the road with nothing too extreme. The pups are relatively low compared to usual manufacturer specs.

I've used multiple electronic tuners. If I get the 12th fret perfectly in tune with the open string or 12th fret harmonic (I use both), the 3rd fret G (for example) is extremely flat. The best I can do is compromise being slightly flat on the low frets and slightly sharp on the higher frets as well as the open E. This always bugs me on the gig so I end up tuning to a fretted 3rd or 5th fret.

I've asked a couple of buddies who are experts at setup and building and the best advice they have given me is that it is due to old strings. It is not old strings, as the problem is duplicated exactly on brand new strings. I use DR fatbeams .45-.105

My buddy said it is unlikely that the frets are misplaced as everything is done with CC machines, etc. He said I might need a fret level. On a brand new bass? Does anyone know of an adjustment I can make in action or relief to fix this mysterious problem or is the bass just a lemon?

 

[elBandito]

This is pretty normal. If you intonate the 12th fret to match the open string, lower frets will be flat as consequence. I dont play above 12th fret much, so I set the lower frets to be in tune. It gets worse with thicker strings. Intonation on my B string is the most inconsistent. Setting the string height lower helps a little.

 

[Turnaround]

Be sure that the witness points are set at the bridge and the nut. Most intonation problems occur because the string does not break sharply at either end.

 

[Inertialsky]

I recently set up a few of my basses using the 24th fret instead of the 12th.

I am very pleased with the results

 

[Phenometron]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

Turnaround, I have a sharp break at the bridge. Not so much at the nut - it has three winds on the post, but not a very sharp angle after the nut. I just put on new strings on Tuesday. Anything I can do?

Also, if I'm fretting, how can the witness point at the nut affect anything? Open and E and harmonic come in loud and clear with no wavering on the tuner readout.

 

[lz4005]

A bad witness point at the nut can make the open note out of tune with all the fretted notes.

Can you take a really close look at the frets? If they're crowned in such a way that the string is witnessing on the headstock edge of the lower frets and the body side edge of upper ones it could make the string impossible to intonate perfectly.

How off are the notes? A few cents? More?

 

[Phenometron]

If my 12th fret is perfectly in tune with open, 3rd fret G will read approx 10 cents flats. Way flat and definitely audible in regards to the band. I have always been aware of the slight compromise of intonating a string instrument but I've never seen this before. Unfortunately, I do a lot of playing above 12th fret especially on the E or A strings for timbre reasons. Instead of grabbing a open G or a G on the D string, I'll zoom up and play it on the low strings because it sounds good in certain contexts. It's never been a problem on other basses I've own (almost all of which I have sold - like a dummy).

lz4005, As far as I can tell, the string appears to be contacting frets dead center, BUT when I looked close I realized that the "roots" of some of the frets, the line in the fingerboard where the frets are inserted, are slightly out of perpendicular with the axis of the fingerboard. Maybe this is it - in which case a fret level may help. My question is how come I'm not having this problem with the other three strings on the bass?

 

[202dy]

It is imperative that the string speak at the bridge end of the nut. To set the witness point at the nut, push down hard on string at the fingerboard side while keeping tension on the tuner side of the nut. This should be done at pitch.

If this does not fix the problem there is a high spot in the string groove. That means the string is speaking from the high point rather than the front edge of the nut. The nut will have to be filed to correct the problem and insure that the string speaks from the front edge.

In either case, setting intonation at the twelfth fret is useless because the effective scale length is different than the scale layout because the string is speaking from a different point. This is a game of thousandths. It's got to be right.

 

[lz4005]

lz4005, As far as I can tell, the string appears to be contacting frets dead center, BUT when I looked close I realized that the "roots" of some of the frets, the line in the fingerboard where the frets are inserted, are slightly out of perpendicular with the axis of the fingerboard. Maybe this is it - in which case a fret level may help. My question is how come I'm not having this problem with the other three strings on the bass?

Are you saying the tangs (roots) of the frets are angled towards the nut as you look at them from the side of the neck, or are they not parallel to the nut as you look at them from the front of the neck? Either way it sounds like a manufacturing defect.

 

[Phenometron]

Are you saying the tangs (roots) of the frets are angled towards the nut as you look at them from the side of the neck, or are they not parallel to the nut as you look at them from the front of the neck? Either way it sounds like a manufacturing defect.

The tangs, looking from the side of the neck like I am playing, on a few frets are not parallel to the nut to a VERY slight degree. Some are angled closer to the nut. Some away. I would immediately suspect this, except all the notes on the other strings seem fine.

It is imperative that the string speak at the bridge end of the nut. To set the witness point at the nut, push down hard on string at the fingerboard side while keeping tension on the tuner side of the nut. This should be done at pitch.

If this does not fix the problem there is a high spot in the string groove. That means the string is speaking from the high point rather than the front edge of the nut. The nut will have to be filed to correct the problem and insure that the string speaks from the front edge.

In either case, setting intonation at the twelfth fret is useless because the effective scale length is different than the scale layout because the string is speaking from a different point. This is a game of thousandths. It's got to be right.

^ This was very interesting to me. I guess I'd never really thought about it on this level before. The string is nested well within the nut - there are no gaps. However, a little less than half the string's diameter is extending about the top of the nut. I pressed like crazy to establish a better witness point in front of the nut as instructed, but it didn't seem to do anything.

I'm going to have my buddy take a look at the nut and the crowns of the frets. As it stands, I intonated between the 3rd fret and 15th fret octave. I had to move the saddle a lot which means my initial adjustment was pretty off. Tuning to a fretted note, the open is only a little off so the problem is WAY better than it was.

The guy I'm backing up tonight insists on tuning down half a step anyway so it will be a moot point.

Thanks for all the help everybody!

 

[lz4005]

You can isolate the nut as a problem if you intonate at the 13th fret with a capo at the 1st fret. If it intonates like that then the issue is at the nut. If it still doesn't, then the problem is the frets.

Remember that you're only seeing the tangs on the E string side. The frets could be twisted in such a way that only the part under the E string is in the wrong place.

 

[Andy Maskell]

going back to basics, when you set the intonation using the the 12th fret harmonic (as i do), then you will be correct at the 12th fret. The amount you stretch the string at any given fret will be different to that at say the 9th fret, of the 15th.
The higher your action, the worse this problem will be.
achieve a low action, and set your intonation to the frets you most commonly use and the problem, will be less noticeable, however, it's friday, and vodka-o-clock, so i may be talking a load of male-reproductive-organs, or not.
Either way, it's vodka-o-clock here in the UK, so i don't really give a monkeys (-_-)

 

[prd004]

If you are trying to make the E string sharper and it won't seem to intonate, I have one possibility:

I've seen the strings tension hold the saddle in place, so even though you are turning the screw the screw pops out instead of the saddle moving.
Either loosen the string or tap on the screw lightly to slide the saddle forward.

Good luck hope this helps!

 

[202dy]

The tangs, looking from the side of the neck like I am playing, on a few frets are not parallel to the nut to a VERY slight degree. Some are angled closer to the nut. Some away. I would immediately suspect this, except all the notes on the other strings seem fine.



^ This was very interesting to me. I guess I'd never really thought about it on this level before. The string is nested well within the nut - there are no gaps. However, a little less than half the string's diameter is extending about the top of the nut. I pressed like crazy to establish a better witness point in front of the nut as instructed, but it didn't seem to do anything.

I'm going to have my buddy take a look at the nut and the crowns of the frets. As it stands, I intonated between the 3rd fret and 15th fret octave. I had to move the saddle a lot which means my initial adjustment was pretty off. Tuning to a fretted note, the open is only a little off so the problem is WAY better than it was.

The guy I'm backing up tonight insists on tuning down half a step anyway so it will be a moot point.

Thanks for all the help everybody!

What's above the nut doesn't matter.

Try this:

1. Loosen the string enough to move out of the slot easily.
2. Do so.
3. Use a pencil to mark the bottom of the nut slot.
4. Tune and de-tune a few times.
5. Repeat the first two steps.
6. Observe the wear pattern.

If the pencil mark is not completely obliterated at from the seat there is a hump in the groove. There will be no pencil shading at the hump. File the hump.

Remember that the scale length begins from where the string speaks. If it speaks from the middle of the nut the intonation will never be correct.

Also, visible fret wear or indistinct crowns will also cause intonation problems at individual fret positions. If you have a heavy left hand and spend most of your time in the basement chances are that this is a contributing factor.

 

[iiipopes]

It's not just the witness point. The entire nut slot must be rounded with a sharp front edge to the frets and sloped back slightly to the tuners. And if the "capo 1st fret and check octave intonation at 13th" fret works, or you get frustrated splitting the difference with the lowest frets, here is an article on how to take nut material shims and compensate the nut. Make sure you have a good, sharp witness point on the fret side of the nut, and it slopes back towards the headstock, and rub pencil graphite in the slot to prevent sticking. I had to do this particular solution on my custom fanned P/J:

http://www.mimf.com/nutcomp/

 

[David Jayne]

Remember that the scale length begins from where the string speaks. If it speaks from the middle of the nut the intonation will never be correct.

True HOWEVER if this was his problem the G would be sharp, not flat. Imagine exaggerating the problem by moving the whole nut 1/4" closer to the headstock. Tune the open string to pitch and fret at the 12th. The note will be sharp, because the 12th fret is no longer in the center of the (newly extended) scale. So you move the bridge saddle back 1/4" and this puts the 12th fret back in the middle. But now none of the other frets are in the right places--and it gets worse as you approach each end of the neck. The frets down by first position will now be(obviously) too far from the nut and will play sharp. So something is amiss. If it's not a defective string, either the nut or frets in question are not where they belong.