EM6000 question

[Bloomfield]

I just finished spraying a bass the other day with EM6000. It had been a little while since the last time, so out interest and looking for any tips, I read through the entirety of that water-based finish thread which goes on forever. Learned a bit in there although there is very little on EM6000 in that thread; it's mostly about Varathane Ultimate, which sounds great and which I'd really like to try but doesn't seem to be available here.

Anyways, the bass sprayed up nicely. I'd been using up some older EM6000 gloss that I had transferred into a plastic container. As that got low I added more from a fresh can I had and kept going with that. My coats were going on well and levelling out, but I noticed that the surface was duller than I remembered from the past. I put this down to maybe being due to overspray (from re-doing the headstock,) settling on the body, or perhaps a difference in humidity in the shop. One night though, I had a thought after I'd gone to bed. In the morning, I fished the empty new can out of the garbage (contents having gone into the plastic container) and sure enough there it was: SEMI-GLOSS. Oops, I'd been handed the wrong can and hadn't noticed.

I was planning on level-sanding and buffing to a full gloss like usual. There are a couple very small runs that will need sanding out. My question is, can I polish out the semi to a gloss finish, or am I stuck with levelling and then rubbing out with scotchbrite for a semi-gloss/ satin sort of finish?

Andy

 

[Jeff Siddall]

I have never tried EM6000, but in general I have found that a semi-gloss can be polished to be glossy. At this point I don't see that there would be any harm in trying to polish a small area it to see if you would be satisfied with the end result. If so keep going and polish at the end. If not, go get some gloss and spray that over top.

Good luck!

 

[Beej]

You can polish it up to a gloss, I've done it.

Edit, you can also get VU on amazon imported to canada, but its 40 bucks a quart.

 

[Bloomfield]

Thanks guys, I will try levelling and buffing out to see what happens. Will report back when I get some done.

P.S. anything involving more coats is not an option; it's just cured ready to level and needs to go out on Monday.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

The basic answer to your question is yes, you can sand and buff a Semi-Gloss or Satin finish up to a full gloss, if you like. Semi-Gloss and Satin finishes have chemical additives which float to the surface while the finish is curing. They leave a uniform slightly rough surface, which is what reduces the gloss. After it's cured, you can lightly block sand the surface to remove that roughness, and then sand and buff it up to a full gloss. Same process that you would use on Gloss finish.

I have some personal experience with Target's EM6000. I've been messing around with water-base polyurethane finishes for painting basses for more than 15 years. I used Target finishes for several years, although I liked the EM9000 better than EM6000. I did use one gallon of EM6000 and painted several basses with it.

I'm surprised that you have trouble getting Varathane Ultimate in Nova Scotia. It's available through Amazon and on the shelf in most big hardware chain stores.

 

[Beej]

I'm surprised that you have trouble getting Varathane Ultimate in Nova Scotia. It's available through Amazon and on the shelf in most big hardware chain stores.

It's annoying but it's not yet outside the US - I was able to get it a couple of years ago from a specialty supplier local to me, but these days it's not even in their list of products available from Rustoleum. The Rustoleum.ca site (canadian site) does not list it either. It's missing many products compared to the Rustoleum.com site.

Home Depot here doesn't carry it despite carrying other Varathane products. I've asked the paint dept to bring it in and they said it was not in the list of products they could order. Same with Home Hardware, a big canadian chain that makes a point of doing things for the little guy - said it was not in the list of what they could order in. I've ordered it from Amazon a couple of times, and a while back it was expensive, but not inordinately so - I paid around the equivalent of 70 US per gallon. Now when I add it on Amazon, the cheapest one I can find it $38.99 CDN for a quart. That's absurd, even for the puny Canadian dollar. Hence I'm working up every other WB product I can find in the hopes of finding something as dead simple to use.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

It's annoying but it's not yet outside the US - I was able to get it a couple of years ago from a specialty supplier local to me, but these days it's not even in their list of products available from Rustoleum. The Rustoleum.ca site (canadian site) does not list it either. It's missing many products compared to the Rustoleum.com site.

Home Depot here doesn't carry it despite carrying other Varathane products. I've asked the paint dept to bring it in and they said it was not in the list of products they could order. Same with Home Hardware, a big canadian chain that makes a point of doing things for the little guy - said it was not in the list of what they could order in. I've ordered it from Amazon a couple of times, and a while back it was expensive, but not inordinately so - I paid around the equivalent of 70 US per gallon. Now when I add it on Amazon, the cheapest one I can find it $38.99 CDN for a quart. That's absurd, even for the puny Canadian dollar. Hence I'm working up every other WB product I can find in the hopes of finding something as dead simple to use.

That's interesting. Must be some legal issue with sales territory or something.

Target's EM9000 is similar to Varathane Ultimate; very fast drying, very hard at full cure, very clear. I moved on to other finishes because it was fairly expensive ($80/gal), available only by mail order from Target (that may have changed), and I had some problems which seemed to be that it was pre-catalyzing in the can. A short shelf life. I've read that those issues may have been resolved. It was around 2015 that I was working with it.

From Target EM9000, I moved on to Varathane Floor Finish, then Rustoleum's ProFinisher, then Varathane Ultimate. Those four finishes, in my experience, are similar and are all good for painting basses. I judge Varathane Ultimate as the best, mostly because of the exceptional clarity.

 

[Bloomfield]

It's going well so far; I've got most of it buffed out to medium compound and will do the final fine buffing tomorrow. It's looking nice and clear, which is a relief as I was worried it might be a bit cloudy.

The last few times I have started levelling at 1000 grit as I had found that 800 left scratches that were very hard to get out. The surface of the semi-gloss seemed somewhat harder and loaded the 1000 very fast so I switched to 800 and had much better results. No problems with scratches either when moving back to 1000 and on to 1500. I used wet/dry paper dry with very light pressure and moved to a new section of paper at the first sign of pilling. I did try mineral oil as was suggested, but I didn't find it helped much, even when thinned with naptha.

 

[Jeff Siddall]

Same experience here. Below is what is commonly available on the shelf in Canadian stores (used HD as a reference, but they all pretty much have the same stuff):

This Nano Defence stuff is their top of the line product, seems fairly new:
Link Removed

Diamond Finish has been around for decades, and I have used the interior variant before with success, but no idea how it compares to the Nano Defence thing. There used to be floor, interior and exterior variants but now I only see floor and interior:
Link Removed
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Then there is this triple thick stuff. Does not sound sprayable so probably not applicable to instruments:
Link Removed

 

[Jeff Siddall]

Same experience here. Below is what is commonly available on the shelf in Canadian stores (used HD as a reference, but they all pretty much have the same stuff):

This Nano Defence stuff is their top of the line product, seems fairly new:
Link Removed

Update: after looking at the US site for a bit I discovered some interesting verbiage (red text) on the Crystal Clear Floor Finish:

Thanks to patented Aluminum Oxide Nano Technology, this polyurethane outperforms leading brands with maximum adhesion resistance in high-traffic areas. Maximum scuff and scratch resistance.​

Compared to the Canadian Nano Defence:

Made from a patented aluminum oxide formula, Nano Defence is one of the most durable floor finishes in the market with the quality of a professional finish. Varathane® Nano Defence® is crystal clear, virtually odourless, extremely fast drying and provides ultimate protection from everyday traffic. Excellent durability and scuff resistance.​

Hmmm... kinda sounds the same.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

Update: after looking at the US site for a bit I discovered some interesting verbiage (red text) on the Crystal Clear Floor Finish:

Thanks to patented Aluminum Oxide Nano Technology, this polyurethane outperforms leading brands with maximum adhesion resistance in high-traffic areas. Maximum scuff and scratch resistance.​

Compared to the Canadian Nano Defence:

Made from a patented aluminum oxide formula, Nano Defence is one of the most durable floor finishes in the market with the quality of a professional finish. Varathane® Nano Defence® is crystal clear, virtually odourless, extremely fast drying and provides ultimate protection from everyday traffic. Excellent durability and scuff resistance.​

Hmmm... kinda sounds the same.

Yeah, Nano Defence sounds like the Canadian version of Varathane Water-Base Polyurethane Floor Finish, that we get here in the US. It's a tough, fast curing hard polyurethane, with an additive for abrasion resistance. It works well for painting instruments with two drawbacks: The additive makes it harder to level sand, but it can be brought up to a high gloss. And it does have some bluish tint. It looks great over light colors or wood, but you don't want to use it as clear over black or dark colors. They claim that Floor Finish is "crystal clear", but it isn't.

What we like so much about Varathane Ultimate is that it's the same basic chemistry as Floor Finish, but without the abrasion-resistant additive, and it really is crystal clear.

They must offer Ultimate in Canada under some other name. It would be a Water-Base Polyurethane for Interior use, Fast Drying and Crystal Clear. Those are the terms to look for.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

It's going well so far; I've got most of it buffed out to medium compound and will do the final fine buffing tomorrow. It's looking nice and clear, which is a relief as I was worried it might be a bit cloudy.

The last few times I have started levelling at 1000 grit as I had found that 800 left scratches that were very hard to get out. The surface of the semi-gloss seemed somewhat harder and loaded the 1000 very fast so I switched to 800 and had much better results. No problems with scratches either when moving back to 1000 and on to 1500. I used wet/dry paper dry with very light pressure and moved to a new section of paper at the first sign of pilling. I did try mineral oil as was suggested, but I didn't find it helped much, even when thinned with naptha.

You are experiencing the joys of wet level-sanding water-base polyurethanes. It's difficult, for the reasons you are describing.

One of the great Miracle Products for me is 3M's 05954 Super Duty Rubbing Compound. It's a coarse grade rubbing compound that removes scratches from about 600 grit level and takes them up to 1500 grit level. It takes the place of the fine wet sanding.

https://www.amazon.com/3M-05954-Sup...r+duty+rubbing+compound&qid=1636793001&sr=8-1

Here's my normal procedure for a high gloss finish with Varathane Ultimate:

• After spraying the final clear top coats, let them cure for a day or two
• Light level sand with 600 paper dry on a hard block to get the surface flat. Hand sanding in straight lines with the grain.
• Lightly go over it with 1000 Abralon, dry, by hand in straight lines
• Buff with 3M Super Duty compound; unsewn cotton wheel
• If I see any rough spots, smooth them with 1000 paper, hard rubber block, mineral oil; then redo the 3M Super Duty buffing
• When it all looks good, polish it up to the final gloss with any good automotive rubbing compound; I like Meguiar's Ultimate Rubbing Compound.

That's the best and fastest process I've found for water-base polyurethanes.