EQ inquiry, possibly solved by crossover... Does this make sense and exist?

[nickbearden]

Hi gang-


I'm going to attempt my best at explaining what I'm shooting for here. It isn't so much as an inquiry of suggestions on EQ, but more of an inquiry of whether or not some type of unit exists to achieve what I'm looking to accomplish.

My rig 90% of the time is an early 70's blackline Ampeg SVT paired with an 8x10, sometimes it's a DNA 4x10 using either my 1967 Gretsch 6072, Gibson EB-2 or vintage P-bass. The tone is thick, fat, and the goal is to move as much air as possible. Tone wise, think old 60's Ray Price type upright tone in a sense. Round, warm & wooly, woofer pushing, air moving foundation of fat. The goal is to be felt more than "heard". I use an Aguilar ToneHammer DI post EQ with the EQ set exactly to what I want the FOH to just simply make louder. I typically don't want them to tinker with that EQ much, as for I'm sending it to them a specific way for a specific reason, which is discussed at load in and sound check, and when our own dedicated guy isn't with us, most of them understand and oblige.

Now, all this being said, the tone is pretty dialed and perfect for the low end, frets 0-5 to 7 being ideal (where all the money is made), but once I start getting into territory of frets 10 on up, certain frequencies drop out. It's a conundrum, because I don't necessarily go up there very often, but when I do it's for a reason and purpose, and needs to be heard, however the tone range just drops out. Now, before we start asking questions about the EQ settings and where to adjust and change it, I don't really want to go down that path, because I have a hard time justifying altering and sacrificing the fundamental low end tone for an occasional high end tone. I've tried to reach a compromise somewhere in the middle, but I find that if I EQ something which makes the higher note/neck register stick out, it renders the low end boxy and honky... No bueno!

SO, this is where the inquiry begins, and perhaps this is the function of some type of cross over processor?! What I would like to know is, if there's a device that I can plug into and specifically tailor different frequencies to be sent to different channels. What I'm thinking is, the SVT is two channel. If I could dial in channel 1 for the fundamental fat, and dial in ch 2 for the more midrange / higher stuff, and then there would be some form of processor in between which would filter and designate certain frequencies and registers into specific channels. I would want this to be sent both to the amp and to the FOH. If I'm playing a low G and I want to move the venue off the foundation, it gets sent to ch 1, and if I want to make sure that the people in the nose bleeds hear the high G, it goes to ch 2.

Make sense?


Thanks in advance folks

 

[Downunderwonder]

No sense. The frequencies you want to hear are not present in the higher notes.

 

[samson3382]

Compressor?

 

[Need Gigs]

You could consider an EQ pedal.

 

[Jazz Ad]

Yes of course, use an eq pedal that you switch on when you want another sound. You could also use an a/b switch to send your bass into channel a or b, since you amp has them.

 

[nickbearden]

What about something like this? http://bssaudio.com/en-US/products/dpr-901ii

 

[walterw]

maybe accept that those higher notes are plenty loud out front (think about it, up there you're pushing out guitar notes with many times more amp power) but they won't "feel" like the lower notes where actual bass happens.

that said, if you are boosting bass EQ and cutting mids and highs for the extra fat low end, this is the price you pay.

 

[nickbearden]

These answers aren't in line with what I'm shoot in' for, so perhaps the inquiry wasn't stated clearly.

Almost as if the EQ which is being sent to an amp, changes all the time dynamically in real time with whatever note or frequency register is being played at that exact moment. Essentially a smart multi-band eq/compressor/expander which could be adjusted to behave certain ways, based upon what frequencies it was being fed.

It's not a simple "just change your eq" or "put a compressor in line" type of solution. All of that has already been implemented. More of an "if this-then that" type of function. Aka- of this type of frequency is being fed, do this type of eq & compression, and if this other type of frequency is being fed, apply a different and appropriate eq and compression for that.

If you really fundamentally think about it, overall eq is static and will have it's strengths and weaknesses. What I'm looking to achieve is all strength, no weaknesses...

It's gotta be possible somehow

 

[T-Bird]

Hi.

What I'm looking to achieve is all strength, no weaknesses...

It's gotta be possible somehow

Sure it is possible, the tonal goal that is, but not likely with the SVT's characteristics.

You could try something like 4 or 5 band fully parametric EQ (analog or digital) to even out the tone more to your liking.

But then again, why use a SVT in the first place if You're going to process the heck out of the signal.
That's a guitarist syndrome IMO.



A few additional questions if You don't mind:

Are the same problems present when recording, or just live?

Do the drop-outs of frequencies/tone happen only on-stage or on FOH as well?

What mic is used for the FOH feed?​

Regards
Sam

 

[fokof]

IME an SVT is not very good in the low end.
Loads and loads and lots of low mid though…..


If you want to shake a foundation , get an Uber loud 18"

 

[mbelue]

I know what you mean and have been down that road.
What you would like is different EQ on different parts of the fretboard?
There are two ways I see to accomplish this. The first is something like the Roland V-Bass, which might accomplish what you want with allot of programming.
The second is change pickups/strings/bass.
Sure you like the way your bass sounds when you slice off the treble/upper mids but then notes disappear higher up the fretboard?
How about some pickups that can give you that tone without drastic EQ?
Dimarzios with half/rounds got me really close to what I want without drastic EQ, just some tone rolloff on the bass.
Drastic EQ needs means your using the wrong equipment. If you only like your rig once you've beat it to death with EQ maybe it's not the rigs fault?

 

[DavC]

the PA already has a few Crossovers in it ... ! ( passive and/or active ) which is already sending certain freqs to certain speakers ..

there are a couple Dual Band Compressors out there which might help control your tone the way you'd like ...

 

[gearhead1972]

I think you want to use the side chain of a compressor with a second EQ. http://www.sweetwater.com/insync/sidechain-tuning-eq/

 

[Geri O]

I don't see a processor, crossover, or any other external device solving your issue. It's not that kind of issue.

This is pretty normal for different areas of the neck. It sounds like the tone on the upper frets (I'm ASSuming you mean the G string, maybe to a lesser extent, the D string, too). The fundamental notes and the associated overtones are going higher, leaving the warm, fuzzy area of the lower strings in the first few frets. Actually, as you play higher up the neck, the strings get just slightly closer to the pups, so that should have some effect on the tone, perhaps just slightly louder. And frankly, when I play in the upper register, I'm trying to get away from the tone of the lower strings and register for a different tone and feel of the note. Now, one thing I learned probably 30 years ago is that when I went to using a medium-gauge set of strings (with .050 for the G, .070 for the D), it "seems" to me that there is less disparity between the low registers and the higher strings and registers. I"m not gonna swear on that, but it did seem to make a difference

You might taking the bass to a luthier and explain what you're dealing with and see if he/she (the best emergency repair I ever saw was done by a woman luthier on my Alembic bass in the mid-80s) has any ideas on how to approach a solution. You could try an EQ pedal (no, a crossover is nowhere near what you are looking for, as if anything is) and engage it when you go that area of the neck. But that could be a lot of foot-stomping. really, you'd need a device that sensed the fundamental note you are playing and provide a specific treatment (EQ, comp, whatever) programmed to kick in when you play that note. Just thinking about the logistics of making such a device gives me a headache. If someone knows of such a device, I'd love to know about it. Fender bassists everywhere might want one!! (I'm joking, I'm a dedicated Precision/Stingray guy, so I can make fun of myself...)

It will be very easy and very tempting to throw money at this problem, but I'd toss some toward a competent luthier's direction first before I tried the external toys.

Good luck...

 

[4Mal]

These answers aren't in line with what I'm shoot in' for, so perhaps the inquiry wasn't stated clearly.

Almost as if the EQ which is being sent to an amp, changes all the time dynamically in real time with whatever note or frequency register is being played at that exact moment. Essentially a smart multi-band eq/compressor/expander which could be adjusted to behave certain ways, based upon what frequencies it was being fed.

It's not a simple "just change your eq" or "put a compressor in line" type of solution. All of that has already been implemented. More of an "if this-then that" type of function. Aka- of this type of frequency is being fed, do this type of eq & compression, and if this other type of frequency is being fed, apply a different and appropriate eq and compression for that.

If you really fundamentally think about it, overall eq is static and will have it's strengths and weaknesses. What I'm looking to achieve is all strength, no weaknesses...

It's gotta be possible somehow

Um, actually it is that simple. Your EQ is as strong as your ears. No stronger. There is no box substitute for logging the hours.

 

[T-Bird]

Hi.

you'd need a device that sensed the fundamental note you are playing and provide a specific treatment (EQ, comp, whatever) programmed to kick in when you play that note. Just thinking about the logistics of making such a device gives me a headache. If someone knows of such a device, I'd love to know about it. Fender bassists everywhere might want one!!

"Easy" enough with MIDI tracking.

Or with a Variax .


I still fail to see the point of doing so though, the beauty of a stringed instrument is IMO the ability of being able to get the same note with different timbres when played on the different locations of the FB.

Varying the playing technique and strings, the variation of the timbre can go from very subtle to very drastic.

Of course, if there's a design or manufacturing flaw in the instrument itself, that's a different matter alltogether.
But we wouldn't suggest that to be the case, now would we?

Regards
Sam

 

[jimfist]

OP: yes, what you describe is certainly possible. The solution is a bit "out of the box", and typically out of the norm of thinking for most traditional "static" dynamics/EQ/effects processors....but it does exist, and I have used it effectively (YMMV). It does involve pitch tracking and perhaps volume envelope tracking. It's not MIDI or hex pickup based, and it's done with existing digital processor rack units:

Two units I've owned are capable of this:

-TC Electronic G-Force (available used for $800 or less)
-Fractal Audio AxeFx (Ultra, but the newer AxeFxII is better suited...and spendy).

Other pieces of gear (and software effects/preamp processors such as Guitar Rig) are probably capable of similar results if they allow for pitch tracking, but the TC and AxeFx offer the most flexibility and tweak programming for this type of thing.

I'd be happy to describe the technique and programming if you'd like. It's very cool, and allows for automated changes to EQ and dynamics (and/or distortion and effects if desired) as you play. It is a bit tech geek, though.

 

[seedokebass]

Nick, is this issue consistent with all three of your basses? Is this issue just FOH, or with your live rig too?

Have the usual suspects been addressed?

• Have the basses been set up recently?
  
• Old/new strings?
• Old/new pre & power tubes in the SVT?
• Has the SVT been serviced recently/ever?

Maybe your basses are tonally similar to the band mix and getting phased out?

 

[teleharmonium]

I think the only thing you need to change is your mind.

All stretched strings have a tonal change when they are stopped at shorter lengths. The shorter the length, the fewer harmonics and the less attack.

You're looking at this characteristic as a problem. You don't have to make that value judgment. This behavior can be used to your advantage. It's part of why we have all these frets in the first place. Your choice of which position to use when playing notes that are duplicated on the fingerboard with your left hand is a dynamic tone control. You also have one in your right hand, which is where you choose to pick or pluck the string. Using both of these allows you to hide the sound of a string change in the middle of your part, and to fatten up the sound when it is musically useful (assuming your are playing something that extends in range above the open A), and to make some notes more crisp and percussive at the expense of lows.

If you don't want to lose the harmonics (and fatten up the low/low mid range), don't wander up the neck. It's that simple.

If, beyond that, there is a remaining issue about the highest range of the instrument and you have distinct parts up there that you want to have a different sound (more so than what you can get by playing closer to the bridge) , that's really a separate issue that can be solved by amp channel switching, the pickup switch and the controls on the bass, or many kinds of boost, overdrive, or EQ pedals depending on what you need and your gear (present or future).

I'm not against innovation, but sometimes with something as common as playing a stringed instrument it is worth considering the fact that all the millions upon millions of other people who do it did not have the need for something you are considering. Which in this case would be gear designed to make a bass guitar behave more like a keyboard playing samples of a bass guitar with all the notes sampled in the lowest possible position.

No conventional hardware eq or crossover can do what you describe, they operate at fixed settings unless someone is turning their knobs. If you are boosting frequencies to give you more harmonics on the D at the 10th fret of the E string, you are also boosting the harmonics of the lower notes on the same string, and so your lower notes also sound different; they will still be proportionally brighter and more percussive than the higher fretted notes. What you are talking about would require real time analysis of the signal and EQ modeling.

 

[jimfist]

What you are talking about would require real time analysis of the signal and EQ modeling.

To whatever extent, the technology is available, in a somewhat automated fashion using pitch detection and volume envelopes or ADSRs, to do a number of different and tonally dynamic processes, resulting in anything BUT static EQ and compression across the bass note spectrum. Whether this is worth the time, effort, money, and ultimately sonically in the final analysis is debatable. We play, we listen, and adjust whatever we deem necessary in an attempt to achieve the desired result, whether it be subtle or drastic. I'm not here to pass judgement on the validity of the request or whether I personally think it's a good idea or something I would personally pursue as a solution, however, I have used the processes I describe for various effects, which can be relatively easily translated to EQ and dynamics per the OP's question. It is what it is. JMHO.