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Ext. or 5er for Beeth. 5th, Op.67

Discussion in 'Orchestral Technique [DB]' started by KSB - Ken Smith, Dec 19, 2004.


  1. 5-String Bass (Low 'B' or 'C' Tuning)

    18.8%
  2. Mechanical Extension

    9.4%
  3. Fingered Extension ('E' Latch only)

    21.9%
  4. Fingered Extension with a sliding Latch (and 'E' Latch)

    12.5%
  5. Chromatic Extension (4 seperate latches)

    15.6%
  6. 4-String Bass Tuned Down

    6.3%
  7. 4-String Bass (played up one Octave on Lower Notes)

    34.4%
  8. Other....."Please Explain"

    3.1%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. KSB - Ken Smith

    KSB - Ken Smith Banned Commercial User

    Mar 1, 2002
    Perkasie, PA USA
    Owner: Ken Smith Basses, Ltd.
    I hope this it the right Forum. It involves the Technique to play a fingered Extension in this Piece....

    If any of you have played this, you know what i am referring to.

    My part is 12 pages...on pg.2, of the Allegro Con Brio, Bar #168 (reh.B) is the first Low C. This is playable.......
    Bar 186, Low D.. looks dooable depending on the tempo..
    479-to 485 I have to play Es, Fs D and C.. Will I scrape my Knuckles on my 'G' String tuner as I finger the E,F and D moving around? Does this happen? It's been 30 years since I have a Bass with a Fingered Extension and can't remember.

    The 32nds in the Andante, towards the end of it has a low D within a fast moving part. Is this doable at all with any kind of extension or does it call for a 5er or play it up...

    The piece looks mostly doable with an Extension but we don't rehearse this for months and I don't know all the tempos yet.

    Who has played this with either a Fingered Extension, Mechanical Ext, Fiver or multi latched (sliding or chromatic) Ext., 4 str up an octave, 4 tuned down??
     
  2. DonQuartz

    DonQuartz

    Dec 18, 2004
    Ontario
    Throw all your devices away! What you are talking about is too complicated! If you are tuned in fifths (CGDA) ALL passagework in Beethoven 5 is a breeze and sounds great too.
     
  3. neilG

    neilG

    Jun 15, 2003
    Ventura, CA
    Ken,
    All of that is playable with a fingered extension. Not all editions have those note in the lower octave, BTW. The other technique, when playing the low notes is an iffy proposition, is to stare squarely at the music and play it up an octave. Nobody will care/notice.
    Neil
     
  4. a. meyer

    a. meyer

    Dec 10, 2004
    portland, oregon
    The 32nd notes (andante) aren't that fast. The 64ths are! You can play this part without too much trouble. If you have a few months, then you have lots of slow practice time so as to avoid knuckle scraping.
     
  5. KSB - Ken Smith

    KSB - Ken Smith Banned Commercial User

    Mar 1, 2002
    Perkasie, PA USA
    Owner: Ken Smith Basses, Ltd.
    So DonQ, your vote I guess is for OTHER, with tuning in 5ths? Please vote.
    And a.meyer, you are the one with the Capo, right?.. I would accept your vote as Latch + sliding latch or, OTHER as well.. Plz vote..

    Others..... Please show your Votes if you can.. There is not as much Music sharing on TB for all the combined experiences of the players.. This and other POLLs brings us closer to understanding each others talents..
     
  6. KSB - Ken Smith

    KSB - Ken Smith Banned Commercial User

    Mar 1, 2002
    Perkasie, PA USA
    Owner: Ken Smith Basses, Ltd.
    Lawrence? You voted 5 ways! Have you played the piece with 5 different Basses already? Or, is this just practices or Ideas.....Please.. let us know.....
     
  7. Chasarms

    Chasarms Casual Observer

    May 24, 2001
    Bettendorf, IA USA
    My teacher performed it last summer. It was on his stand when I arrived for the lesson and we tinkered around with it for a couple of lessons. So, take my vote with a 1 lb. box of Morton's.

    I played everything up an octave is is the norm with anything like that that I see.

    FWIW, I butchered it anyway. I'm a year or two from stepping out with that one.
     
  8. KSB - Ken Smith

    KSB - Ken Smith Banned Commercial User

    Mar 1, 2002
    Perkasie, PA USA
    Owner: Ken Smith Basses, Ltd.
    That's ok Chas..I'm not auditioning anyone here. I just wanna know which way you guys have played it. Doesn't matter how well to vote.. I make up my own mind from playing it anyway.

    So far, I can see that this and most other pieces with lower range were mostly written for the 5 String Bass. I think Extensions came much later.....
     
  9. a. meyer

    a. meyer

    Dec 10, 2004
    portland, oregon
    "So far, I can see that this and most other pieces with lower range were mostly written for the 5 String Bass. I think Extensions came much later....."
    maybe. There's a bit of debate about whether the notes below E are written for bass or cello. Dragonetti was a friend of Beethoven's and the inspiration for those fantastic parts we all slave over (including this one), yet he played a 3-string bass tuned A-D-G. He had to be transposing up an octave. E strings of the time sucked. They were huge and hard to tune and not worth the trouble; a B or C string would have been as big around as a quarter. The five-string basses of Beethoven's time probably went no lower than F (Viennese tuning--anyone wanna start a Viennese tuning thread?). Mozart's obbligato for the aria "Per Questa Bella Mano" from this era was probably written for an instrument tuned like this. So who knows? We sure as hell have to play those notes now!
     
  10. Heifetzbass

    Heifetzbass Commercial User

    Feb 6, 2004
    Upstate, SC
    Owner, Gencarelli Bass Works and Fine String Instruments, LLC.
    Ken,

    If you have a well designed extension and work on your technique you should have no problems with this piece.

    Try the storm scene in B #6 and that is a different story...

    BG
     
  11. KSB - Ken Smith

    KSB - Ken Smith Banned Commercial User

    Mar 1, 2002
    Perkasie, PA USA
    Owner: Ken Smith Basses, Ltd.
    Laurence U., you voted 5 times. That means you have played this at least 5 times with 5 different Basses already? How is that possible? Please explain...... thx...
     
  12. KSB - Ken Smith

    KSB - Ken Smith Banned Commercial User

    Mar 1, 2002
    Perkasie, PA USA
    Owner: Ken Smith Basses, Ltd.
    We just played it on 4/2/05, 1 1/2 weeks ago. I used my Morelli with the fingered ext and E latch only. I would prefer, after playing this to do it on a 5-string Bass. Fingering notes on the Scroll is not an easy thing to do at all. I met Hal Robinson, Prin. Philly Orch. and we discussed this for a minute. His Bass has 4 chromatic latches. He agrees you need to finger them like I did or not at all unless you have a 5er or a Mech.Ext. He tells me they can be noisy and the Philly Orch is about 50% Finger/latch Exts and 50% Mech.

    Now that I have played it in concert I have a solid opinion as to the best way to play it. It needs a 5er to play the lower notes the easiest or play them up. We had only 3 Basses for the concert. The other two played it up. It sounded great with some parts in octaves.

    Thx for all the input. This Thread/Poll is still open for those that would still like to voice their opinion.
     
  13. EFischer1

    EFischer1 Guest

    Mar 17, 2002
    New York, New York
    FYI - the boston section is also 50/50 with mech and fingered extensions and they also have a player with no extension.

    So, naturally, it is acceptable even in the highest level to be performing it up an octave.
     
  14. KSB - Ken Smith

    KSB - Ken Smith Banned Commercial User

    Mar 1, 2002
    Perkasie, PA USA
    Owner: Ken Smith Basses, Ltd.
    Yes, but the majority of the players play it down. The player playing up add definition to the notes. It is a good mix of hi-lo IMO.

    I think the Rochester Phil had one 4er, one 5er and the rest with some sort of Ext.
     
  15. I realize I'm too late to help you Ken, but I've done the 5th about 4 X's, once an octave higher, the last 3 X's with the mechanical extension. Not haveing to play at the scroll, and then back to the neck, and with some practice, I was able to perform it as best I can. After a 5 er, IMO, the mechanical is the next best option for playing the lower notes on ease of execution.

    Dennis
     
  16. KSB - Ken Smith

    KSB - Ken Smith Banned Commercial User

    Mar 1, 2002
    Perkasie, PA USA
    Owner: Ken Smith Basses, Ltd.
    I agree with you on that. That is why I am converting one of my Basses in to a 5er. If I have to play fast or ,oving passages, I bring the 5. If not, I use a 4 or 4 w/ext. I will go with the Gated since I can also finger it if need be.