Extended Peg Head For Low B = better B?

[pilotjones]

Sorry, but wrong. The witness points (bridge saddle and nut) and the distance between them are what matter, not where the string is anchored beyond them.

Since the speaking length of the string (between the witness points) is the only place you have to have a definative tension to make the string sound it's correct open pitch, the length beyond those points becomes irrelevent as long as the tension between the witness points only is correct.

Your power pole analogy is fatally flawed as the anchor points and the witness points are one in the same in that scenario.

The witness points are your (virtual) true anchor points when dealing with the string tension needed to sound the correct pitch. Any increase in "tension" (perceived or otherwise) will raise the pitch.

Right. Whether you strung your string between two power poles, and tied them off there; or if you continued it ten more poles down the block in each direction, as long as you had the same tension between those two points in question, you will get the same note.

Simple physics.

T = tension, pounds
UW = unit weight, pounds per linear inch
F = frequency, Hz (sec^-1)
L = length between fixed points of vibrating string

T = ( UW × (2 × L × F)2 ) / 386.4
F = sqrt[ (386.4 × T) / (4 × UW × L^2) ]

 

[Richard Lindsey]

I'm a very visual guy and like to use other things as examples.
Fact - Moving the anchor points of a string AWAY from each other does increase tension.
For example if you take two power poles a couple of hundred feet apart from each other and string a .130 B string between them and then took a 6 inch span and string that with the same gage string, which set-up would you have to put the most tension on to get a "B" note? The obvious and logical answer is that the higher tension would have to be applied to the set up with the greater distance between the anchor points.
The nut and the bridge saddles are non-issues since these are NOT anchor points. We all have to keep in mind what tension is; it is the "pull" on the string. No matter if you're fretting the B stiring or holding it open the tension is always the same.
Keep my long span and short span examples in mind and it will be very clear that length between anchor points does indeed mean higher tension and greater focus of the B string.
Hint - I slipped a 1 inch aluminum small diameter barrel over my B and E strings before mounting them on my top load bridge basses and the tone of these two strings are much more focused because they don't flop like they normaly would. I simply moved the anchor points away from each other.

No, as Phat says, you're mistaken. Maybe this will help. I realize it's kind of a weird way of explaining it, but anyway ... Think of it this way: a nut is functionally the same as fretting a note, in that it shortens the speaking length of a string, giving you a vibrating length that is not the same as the total length of string under tension. If you could move the fret toward the bridge, that would be just the same as playing higher frets.

Now imagine you have two identical 36" scale basses, with identical strings. On one of them, the low B tuner is 36" from the nut, and on the other, the low B tuner is only 12" from the nut. (Yeah, I know, silly and exaggerated example, but maybe it will clarify the principle.) Now tune both basses to pitch. Your assumption would be that on the one with the longer distance to the tuner, the low B would be at higher tension, right? Actually, it's not, and here's one way of explaining why.

Remember I said that a nut is functionally just like fretting a note. Now, on the bass with the bigger headstock, the nut is halfway between the tuner and the bridge (36" on either side). This means that the nut is equivalent to taking the entire length of string under tension and fretting it in the middle, which means that the pitch of the total string, if the nut were not there, would be B below low B. It would be like having a 72" scale instrument with a capo on its twelfth fret to produce the low B we know and love.

On the bass with the smaller headstock, the nut is not smack in the middle of the length of string under tension, it's closer to the tuner. This means that the nut is *not* equivalent to fretting a string at its midpoint; it might be closer to, I dunno, fretting at the 5th fret. This means that the pitch of the total string, if the nut were not there, would *have* to be some note *higher than B below low B*--maybe F# below high B, or something like that. This would be like having a 48" scale instrument with a capo at the 5th fret to produce the low B.

The assumption that greater length leads to higher tension only holds true if the strings are tuned to the same pitch. If you could flatten out the headstocks of the two instruments and remove the nut, so that the vibrating length was equal to the length under tension, you would find that the pitches were different. The greater tension you would have expected with the greater length of string under tension is counteracted by the fact that the longer string is tuned to a lower pitch.

I know this is a bit laborious, and what the others have said is more elegant and concise, but I've sometimes found that this way of looking at it can get a point across when better explanations don't.

FWIW.

 

[pilotjones]

I'm a very visual guy and like to use other things as examples.
Fact - Moving the anchor points of a string AWAY from each other does increase tension.
For example if you take two power poles a couple of hundred feet apart from each other and string a .130 B string between them and then took a 6 inch span and string that with the same gage string, which set-up would you have to put the most tension on to get a "B" note? The obvious and logical answer is that the higher tension would have to be applied to the set up with the greater distance between the anchor points.
The nut and the bridge saddles are non-issues since these are NOT anchor points. We all have to keep in mind what tension is; it is the "pull" on the string. No matter if you're fretting the B stiring or holding it open the tension is always the same.
Keep my long span and short span examples in mind and it will be very clear that length between anchor points does indeed mean higher tension and greater focus of the B string.
Hint - I slipped a 1 inch aluminum small diameter barrel over my B and E strings before mounting them on my top load bridge basses and the tone of these two strings are much more focused because they don't flop like they normaly would. I simply moved the anchor points away from each other.

As PB said, the problem here is that you have two different speaking lengths, the same string weight, and the same desired pitch - so, the tension must be changed to generate that pitch.

If you strung two strings between the poles; same string weight; same desired pitch; the 1st string is free to vibrate with the two poles as witness points; the 2nd string is passed over a bridge and a nut six inches apart, somewhere between the poles.

By your reasoning, both strings would have to be held at extremely high tension, because the clamping points for both are 100 yards apart. But we know that this is not true. If both strings are held at the same tension, the string with a six inch vibrating length will sound at a frequency 360000 times higher than the one with the 100 yard vibrating length.

 

[KenToby]

Again, a calibrated strain gage will read higher for a string of a longer length than one of a shorter length that are tuned to the same frequency - PERIOD. This is called "tension". This is a FACT of physics that can't be argued with a bit of research.
Don't get caught up in where the nut, saddles or our fingers contact the string, these factors only determine the frequency at which the string vibrates, better known to us as "notes" (A, A#, C, C#, F, F#, etc.). Once we tune our open string, the tension will continue to read the same (per a strain gage) even if fret a different note.

 

[KenToby]

Sorry bro, you are mixing up the 2 fundimental elements of our conversation, Tension and Rate of Vibration.
My previous post mentioning a strain gage makes is all chrystal clear clear.

It is impossible to have strings of the same gage yet different length, tuned to the same frequency and have them read the same tension on a strain gage. Can't do it. The longer string WILL ALWAYS have a higher tension reading.

Thanks,

KT

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Again, a calibrated strain gage will read higher for a string of a longer length than one of a shorter length that are tuned to the same frequency - PERIOD. This is called "tension". This is a FACT of physics that can't be argued with a bit of research.
Don't get caught up in where the nut, saddles or our fingers contact the string, these factors only determine the frequency at which the string vibrates, better known to us as "notes" (A, A#, C, C#, F, F#, etc.). Once we tune our open string, the tension will continue to read the same (per a strain gage) even if fret a different note.

Again, your fundamental mistake is that you think the *entire* length of the longer string and the *entire* length of the shorter string would be tuned to the same pitch if there were nothing along their lengths terminating vibration (i.e., nuts and fretting of notes). As I explained above, if you read it, they're not. The pitch that's the same between two otherwise identical absses with different low B tuner locations is only the pitch of the *vibrating portions*. Pitch is a function of vibration. It's only the part of the string that's between the nut and the bridge that's a B. Just as when you fret that string on the 1st fret, it's only the vibrating portion that's at a pitch of C. If you think that the *entire* string is then at a pitch of C, you have to believe that fretting a note increases tension sufficiently to raise pitch a half step, and everybody knows that doesn't happen.

This isn't theory, it's just the way it is. You can't have identical strings, identical pitches, and identical speaking lengths without also having identical tension.

 

[KenToby]

The words escape me that allow me to word this thing any easier. Must be me I guess...

Different lengths @ same frequency = different tensions.

Thanks everyone

KT...

 

[Nick man]

The words escape me that allow me to word this thing any easier. Must be me I guess...

Different lengths @ same frequency = different tensions.

Thanks everyone

KT...

Ok, but the thing is, the length is the same.

Its only the part between the nut and bridge that matter.

Peace
Nick

 

[Richard Lindsey]

The words escape me that allow me to word this thing any easier. Must be me I guess...

Different lengths @ same frequency = different tensions.

Thanks everyone

KT...

Sorry man, no hostility, but you're just flat-out wrong. One more time:

The "frequency" of an open B string, or any string, is a property of the vibrating length of the string, *not* a property of the total length of string under tension. The pitch of a vibrating length of string is a product of tension, mass, and (vibrating) length. You can't change tension without also changing pitch.

I'll say it again. It is only the 34" or 35" or 36" of vibrating string that has a pitch of B, not the string as a whole. There's your error. There are *not* two different lengths with the same frequencies, because the part that has the frequencies is the same, given the same scale length. There are two identical lengths with the same frequencies.

A nut is just like a fret. When you fret the low B on the 1st fret, do you think the *whole* string (meaning the entire length from tuner to bridge) is now at a pitch of C? Do you think the tension has changed? Of course you don't--you know that it's only that part of the string between the 1st fret and the bridge that is vibrating at a pitch of C. It's the same thing with the nut on an open string: only the part between the nut and the bridge is vibrating, and only that part is figured in when talking about pitch.

 

[GooseYArd]

Here's how I think of it:

take two almost identical basses, one with a 2 foot long headstock, one with a plain old 2+2 headstock.

Beat up and rob two metalheads with floyd rose tremolos, and steal their locking nuts. Then bust into a string factory , and demand one 34" B string, and that they make you a 50-something inch long one for the other bass, in the name of science. The go next door to Guitar Center and force their repair guy to install the nuts for you. Make one last stop at Home Depot and steal a chainsaw.

Now take all your loot and go home. String up both basses. It will take you a lot of twisting to get the 58" bass up to tension, but its ok because we're going to destroy it in a minute.

Strum the B string, and possibly admire the enormous sounding B on that 58" bass. Enjoy it while you can!

Now lock the nuts. Strum again. The B strings will sound the same. If they don't, you were imagining it before. Unlock them and try again. Don't forget that locking the nut doesn't make any difference, because a nut immobilizes the string the same way, whether its locked or not. If you can still hear a difference, see an audiologist and repeat this step.

Now get a chainsaw, some clamps and a couple of sawhorses. Clamp down both guitars, and saw the headstocks off both of them, behind the nut. Look out for flying debris.

Now, which B string is under more tension? Because the locking nut kept the strings from slipping at all, they should both be at precisely the same tension as before we did our little hatchet job. Furthermore, we know, because we're using strings that were identical except for their overall length before, that the pieces of string between the nut and the bridge on both basses is exactly the same length and mass. Also, unless our nuts were defective, they'll both be tuned to the same pitch.

Use your stolen tension guage to determine which one of them has the higher tension

It might seem like a bogus example to use a locking nut, but its not. Strings don't slip in regular nuts except when you adjust the machine heads.

For extra credit, how many people got robbed here?

 

[Geoff St. Germaine]

The words escape me that allow me to word this thing any easier. Must be me I guess...

Different lengths @ same frequency = different tensions.

Thanks everyone

KT...

<font color="RED">Agreed. Different lengths, same frequency different tension. The frequency only depends on the mass density of the string, the length vibrating and the tension.

Here is an example. There are two basses, one with an extended B (6" beyond the nut) and one with a short distance beyond the nut, 1" perhaps. They both have a 35" scale, lets say. Let us assume that they have a different tension due to this difference in "non-speaking" length. Now, it is common knowledge that fingerboards are fretted using a method that determines the fret position only from the scale length (nut to saddle), ie they have the same fret positions. You can even call Fodera and they will tell you that the fretting is independent of whether the bass is being built with an extended or non-extended B tuning peg. Lets say we capo the bass at the 12th fret and we capo it so hard that the string cannot slip at the capo (which isn't really unreasonable). Now what we have is two strings, of length 17.5" approximately (not taking intonation into account) with the same mass per unit length and different tensions. The situation is two identical strings, the same length but different tensions. From your statement above this means that they will vibrate at a different frequency. This means they are of a different note. Well, now here is a contradiction. We assumed that if they had different tensions that it would result in the same note on the bass neck, but they didn't. This means the assumption is incorrect.

I don't know how many ways this can be put. The string beyond the nut doesn't have any way to affect the tension required to bring the bass into tune. No matter what this distance is, 20ft, 1", it doesn't matter.

I challenge you to find the incorrect reasoning in my example or what you think is incorrect about it.

I am an honours physics student, and I can say that your suggestion is wrong. I'm sorry it had to come to this, but what more can I say.</font>

Geoff

 

[GooseYArd]

Oteil is also one of the best players in the world, I don't think he would fall trap to stupid marketing gimmicks when it comes to his livelihood.

If our brain "tricks" us into thinking that an extended headstock is better than a standard headstock then I feel sorry for all bass players as whole because we must be pretty stupid.

Nobody is immune to the power of suggestion! In the case of Fodera, I don't think they were trying to rip anybody off at all, it was just an unsound scientific conclusion that seemed to spell something good for people, so they went ahead and did it. If they had been charging 1000$ for the option, and they knew it wasnt doing anything, that'd be dirty.

People don't want things that aren't true to be true because they're stupid, I think it's because they're optimistic and prefer to be happy

 

[jenderfazz]

Sorry KenToby, what you're saying makes sense but your "different lengths" become the same once you hit the nut. Thus I'd have to say that an extended peg head does nothing to help the B.

 

[temp5897]

People don't want things that aren't true to be true because they're stupid, I think it's because they're optimistic and prefer to be happy

That's certainly an optimistic way of looking at it.

 

[temp5897]

.
I'd love to see someone do a blind test of a Fodera, with the reversed-peg setup and the standard one. It might require swiching out a tuner for a reverse geared one in between.).

Well like I said earlier, I have tried the extended B config and personally did not notice it being any better than a standard...

 

[Nick man]

Here's how I think of it:

take two almost identical basses, one with a 2 foot long headstock, one with a plain old 2+2 headstock.

Beat up and rob two metalheads with floyd rose tremolos, and steal their locking nuts. Then bust into a string factory , and demand one 34" B string, and that they make you a 50-something inch long one for the other bass, in the name of science. The go next door to Guitar Center and force their repair guy to install the nuts for you. Make one last stop at Home Depot and steal a chainsaw.

Now take all your loot and go home. String up both basses. It will take you a lot of twisting to get the 58" bass up to tension, but its ok because we're going to destroy it in a minute.

Strum the B string, and possibly admire the enormous sounding B on that 58" bass. Enjoy it while you can!

Now lock the nuts. Strum again. The B strings will sound the same. If they don't, you were imagining it before. Unlock them and try again. Don't forget that locking the nut doesn't make any difference, because a nut immobilizes the string the same way, whether its locked or not. If you can still hear a difference, see an audiologist and repeat this step.

Now get a chainsaw, some clamps and a couple of sawhorses. Clamp down both guitars, and saw the headstocks off both of them, behind the nut. Look out for flying debris.

Now, which B string is under more tension? Because the locking nut kept the strings from slipping at all, they should both be at precisely the same tension as before we did our little hatchet job. Furthermore, we know, because we're using strings that were identical except for their overall length before, that the pieces of string between the nut and the bridge on both basses is exactly the same length and mass. Also, unless our nuts were defective, they'll both be tuned to the same pitch.

Use your stolen tension guage to determine which one of them has the higher tension

It might seem like a bogus example to use a locking nut, but its not. Strings don't slip in regular nuts except when you adjust the machine heads.

For extra credit, how many people got robbed here?

I like this explanation.

Peace
Nick

 

[temp5897]

Then why are you the only one arguing in favor of them.

I wasn't. And if you truly read and understood my previous posts you would realize this.

I have tried them and would never order one because I do not *personally* see the advantage and I think it's ugly on top of that. I'm just saying that I'm not gonna say it does absolutely *nothing* for a bass as I don't know enough about it. That's the key point I was personally making. I don't have enough experience/knowledge on the matter.

Besides, I play E-C

 

[PhatBasstard]

The words escape me that allow me to word this thing any easier. Must be me I guess...

Different lengths @ same frequency = different tensions.

Thanks everyone

KT...

Apparently you are not seeing the big picture here.

The only place tension matters is between the nut and bridge saddle. If there were no witness points (other than the anchor points) your power pole analogy would be correct.

Regardless of the anchor points beyond the witness points the given string must be at a given tension between those witness points to sound the correct given pitch. Raise the tension, raise the pitch. Very, Very simple.....Period!(sorry)
Oy!

 

[temp5897]

Regardless of the anchor points beyond the witness points the given string must be at a given tension between those witness points to sound the correct given pitch. Raise the tension, raise the pitch. Very, Very simple.....Period!(sorry)
Oy!

Hey PB-
This is an honest question. If this is the case how is it that one 35 inch scale bass can have a horribly floppy B, while another say a Roscoe has an incredibly tight B yet they sound the same note? Same note, vastly different tensions. Right?

 

[PhatBasstard]

Here's how I think of it:

take two almost identical basses, one with a 2 foot long headstock, one with a plain old 2+2 headstock.

Beat up and rob two metalheads with floyd rose tremolos, and steal their locking nuts. Then bust into a string factory , and demand one 34" B string, and that they make you a 50-something inch long one for the other bass, in the name of science. The go next door to Guitar Center and force their repair guy to install the nuts for you. Make one last stop at Home Depot and steal a chainsaw.

Now take all your loot and go home. String up both basses. It will take you a lot of twisting to get the 58" bass up to tension, but its ok because we're going to destroy it in a minute.

Strum the B string, and possibly admire the enormous sounding B on that 58" bass. Enjoy it while you can!

Now lock the nuts. Strum again. The B strings will sound the same. If they don't, you were imagining it before. Unlock them and try again. Don't forget that locking the nut doesn't make any difference, because a nut immobilizes the string the same way, whether its locked or not. If you can still hear a difference, see an audiologist and repeat this step.

Now get a chainsaw, some clamps and a couple of sawhorses. Clamp down both guitars, and saw the headstocks off both of them, behind the nut. Look out for flying debris.

Now, which B string is under more tension? Because the locking nut kept the strings from slipping at all, they should both be at precisely the same tension as before we did our little hatchet job. Furthermore, we know, because we're using strings that were identical except for their overall length before, that the pieces of string between the nut and the bridge on both basses is exactly the same length and mass. Also, unless our nuts were defective, they'll both be tuned to the same pitch.

Use your stolen tension guage to determine which one of them has the higher tension

It might seem like a bogus example to use a locking nut, but its not. Strings don't slip in regular nuts except when you adjust the machine heads.

For extra credit, how many people got robbed here?

Correct and funny!
True talent always amazes.