Fender (and Squier) wide range humbucker - what's going on under there?

[Papazita]

I picked up one of the new Squier Paranormal Rascal basses last fall, an I am absolutley in love with the sound of this bass. 2 Squier-branded (and I'm sure Chinese made, if that makes a difference to anyone) wide-range humbuckers in it. I'm only vaguely familiar with this type of pickup from the old Fender Telecaster bass and it's various reissues. I've never played one in person, or anything else with these pickups. What's their story? What's going on under the cover? How do they compare to, say a Gibson mudbucker or the DarkStars?

I"m loving them so much and the Squier bass is affordable enough that I almost want to grab another one, just to experiment with!

 

[depalm]

Also interested in this subject.
Anybody?

 

[ctmullins]

I don't know much. But these are dual-coil, not like a BiSonic, and not a sidewinder like the Gibson mudbucker.

The originals from the 1970s used CuNiFe magnets, which was somehow advantageous and desirable (?). The reissues use garden variety magnets, not sure if ceramic or AlNiCo.

They look cool!

 

[DCCat]

Here's a great, detailed article on the original CuNiFe WRHB concept and design:

The Wide Range Humbucker and The Genius of Seth Lover — Lawing Musical Products

These pickups are most famously used in guitars, but appeared in the 70's Telecaster bass. Fender reintroduced them in the 2010's in the Fender Modern Player Telecaster (neck & bridge pickups) and a Squier version (neck only), but these used AlNiCo V magnets (I think, although it's possible it's a ceramic design) and are not as well-regarded as the original. I have a Modern Player Telecaster bass and frankly don't like it a lot because it's quite muddy, though I made it better by incorporating push-pull knobs to switch between serial (stock) and parallel. I thought about replacing the pickups for a while but kept them because they have a tone that's unique relative to my other basses.

More recent Fender Paranormal, Vintera, and Jaguar basses incorporate this pickup, but I don't know if they're CuNiFe or not. They might be, but I say that only because Fender has recently reintroduced the CuNiFe design for guitar pickups (you can even buy them individually, without a guitar), so maybe this latest generation of bass pickups is also retro in that way. I've sometimes wondered if the guitar pickup would work as a bass pickup given the different pole piece layout.

There are a few companies that make facsimiles of these pickups for guitar and fewer that make some for bass. These facsimiles have generally used AlNiCo, but The Creamery has recently offered a CuNiFe option for their bass WRHB pickups.

 

[Old Blastard]

My Fender Starcaster has a pair of these and I love the sound. I believe they are Alnico.

 

[kodiakblair]

The originals from the 1970s used CuNiFe magnets, which was somehow advantageous and desirable (?).

The advantage of CuNIFe was it was tough enough to make machine screws but is losing magnetic strength desirable ?

The 'losing power' I recall from an old thread, likely Music-Electronics-Forum. The drop is quite severe, up to 30% over 20 years. Passing between Neodymium isn't enough, you need a magnet charger to bring them back up to speed

 

[BlueNorth44]

Does anyone know how to adjust the height of these sort of pickups? Just wondering before I start tinkering with them myself.

 

[BlueNorth44]

NVM, I went ahead with the tinkering now I just have to carry on with it until I find what I like.

 

[ctmullins]

Does anyone know how to adjust the height of these sort of pickups? Just wondering before I start tinkering with them myself.

By turning the height adjustment screws.

Or maybe you meant to ask if there was a specific method for setting them to their "optimal" height?

The same way you do any other pickup: start at a few mm, and experiment from there.

 

[BlueNorth44]

By turning the height adjustment screws.

Or maybe you meant to ask if there was a specific method for setting them to their "optimal" height?

The same way you do any other pickup: start at a few mm, and experiment from there.

Yeah, I was overthinking it. I'm fiddling with it to find what I like

 

[Fullmoon1971]

Though these are branded Squier I'd be surprised if they weren't the same units that were in the "Modern Player" Telecaster bass that fender released a few years ago. the modern players were made in China as are the Rascals.

 

[Humberto Gillan]

Supossedly they are AlNiCo pickups, i don't know how much dcr resistance they have, but it wouldn't be surprising if they have the same as the old Fender Modern Player WRHBs that also were on the Squier Vintage Modified Precision TBs and the Telecaster Specials. Someone has measured them?

 

[Fullmoon1971]

Supossedly they are AlNiCo pickups, i don't know how much dcr resistance they have, but it wouldn't be surprising if they have the same as the old Fender Modern Player WRHBs that also were on the Squier Vintage Modified Precision TBs and the Telecaster Specials. Someone has measured them?

The pickups in mine measure
12k Bridge
8.1K Neck

 

[Humberto Gillan]

The pickups in mine measure
12k Bridge
8.1K Neck

Surprisingly much less than in the Modern Player/Vintage Modified itineration, that measured 24k or more.

 

[Derek Kay]

Billy Sheehan likes these (or similar) for his neck PU - stereo/dual channel out with a Precision 2nd PU.

I like the ability to adjust each pole to each string - gives a very even fundamental.

 

[larrysb]

Most of the inexpensive product lines with re-issued WRHB pickups are not the real deal, they're just regular humbucker designs made to look like the WRHB.

The WRHB was designed by Seth Lover, who also designed the original PAF humbucker for Gibson....

A regular humbucker (like the PAF and its many clones and descendants) has a flat bar magnet on the base plate in-between the two coils. The magnet touches the slugs and the screw poles are in a steel bar that touches the other side of the magnet. The magnet is either one of the Alnico alloys or a ceramic ferrite materials. The bar magnet energizes the slugs and screws. The slugs and screws being soft iron, adds to the inductance of the coils and eddy currents affect the frequency response of the pickup.

The WRHB was a different twist on the design, where each pole screw is actually a magnet, similar to many other Fender pickups, like strats and telecasters and P-basses and J-basses. However, alnico is very brittle, and is nearly impossible to machine into threaded screw shapes. So Seth Lover chose to use a magnetic alloy called Cunife (copper, nickel, iron). It is similar to alnico in magnetic properties, but machinable. CuNiFe can be drawn into wire shapes and was used in a variety of things like speedometers.

The Seth Lover WRHB had to be wider than Gibson style humbuckers (aka PAF-style), as the small magnets needed bigger coils of wire. For various magnetic and electrical reasons, the WRHB has a bit different frequency response than most other humbuckers. The net effect is a humbucker that's a bit brighter with a stronger resonant peak, more like Fender's traditional single coil pickups. It was styled with the 3+3 screws exposed. If you take off the cover, there's actually six screws in each coil, 3-up, 3 down.

CuNiFe alloy was mostly discontinued as a commodity metal around 1980. Thus, the end of the original WRHB production.

Fender started re-issuing guitars with WRHB a couple of decades ago, but inside, they were just regular bar magnet humbuckers, with the empty space taken up by wax.

Some time around 2015, Fender managed to get supplies of CuNiFe and re-issued the original Seth Lover design. I have Telecaster with a CuNiFe WRHB in the neck position. It has a nice tone, does its own thing. Sounds kind of like a Tele neck, but with more power and more beef.

What's confusing is that externally, the real-deal WRHB, the real-reissue WRHB and the look-alike that Fender made 20 years ago and still sells in cost-sensitive products, all appear the same from the outside.

 

[Humberto Gillan]

Most of the inexpensive product lines with re-issued WRHB pickups are not the real deal, they're just regular humbucker designs made to look like the WRHB.

The WRHB was designed by Seth Lover, who also designed the original PAF humbucker for Gibson....

A regular humbucker (like the PAF and its many clones and descendants) has a flat bar magnet on the base plate in-between the two coils. The magnet touches the slugs and the screw poles are in a steel bar that touches the other side of the magnet. The magnet is either one of the Alnico alloys or a ceramic ferrite materials. The bar magnet energizes the slugs and screws. The slugs and screws being soft iron, adds to the inductance of the coils and eddy currents affect the frequency response of the pickup.

The WRHB was a different twist on the design, where each pole screw is actually a magnet, similar to many other Fender pickups, like strats and telecasters and P-basses and J-basses. However, alnico is very brittle, and is nearly impossible to machine into threaded screw shapes. So Seth Lover chose to use a magnetic alloy called Cunife (copper, nickel, iron). It is similar to alnico in magnetic properties, but machinable. CuNiFe can be drawn into wire shapes and was used in a variety of things like speedometers.

The Seth Lover WRHB had to be wider than Gibson style humbuckers (aka PAF-style), as the small magnets needed bigger coils of wire. For various magnetic and electrical reasons, the WRHB has a bit different frequency response than most other humbuckers. The net effect is a humbucker that's a bit brighter with a stronger resonant peak, more like Fender's traditional single coil pickups. It was styled with the 3+3 screws exposed. If you take off the cover, there's actually six screws in each coil, 3-up, 3 down.

CuNiFe alloy was mostly discontinued as a commodity metal around 1980. Thus, the end of the original WRHB production.

Fender started re-issuing guitars with WRHB a couple of decades ago, but inside, they were just regular bar magnet humbuckers, with the empty space taken up by wax.

Some time around 2015, Fender managed to get supplies of CuNiFe and re-issued the original Seth Lover design. I have Telecaster with a CuNiFe WRHB in the neck position. It has a nice tone, does its own thing. Sounds kind of like a Tele neck, but with more power and more beef.

What's confusing is that externally, the real-deal WRHB, the real-reissue WRHB and the look-alike that Fender made 20 years ago and still sells in cost-sensitive products, all appear the same from the outside.

I not that sure if in a bass matters that much if is the original design or not, because my Squier VM Precision TB has the same thump and power of the originals, but they're not as muddy, so my guess is that the 70's ones circuitry had some capacitor that made some kind of treble cut, just as the vintage Gibson EB-0/1/2/3 basses had or they had the pickup too upward to the strings, so they produce more output, otherwise the Vintera II 70's Telecaster sounded exactly like a 70's one, they have some mud, but i had seen that the pickup was upward to the strings, while in mine is downward, closer to the pickguard and it has a beautiful, thumpy, upright-like kind of tone.

 

[larrysb]

Yeah, I'm not even 100% sure that the WRHB bass pickups were CuNiFe designs or not. I think they were, back in the 1970's. But to be honest, I've not played one. They're pretty rare.

The I have an American Vintage II "1977 Telecaster Custom" with actual CuNiFe humbucker, like the 70's. Except the neck pocket is CNC machined, the micro-tilt neck works perfectly and it only weighs 7.70 lbs, not 10.9lbs, like the real ones from the 1970's. (there are some killer deals on these floating around...)

The CuNiFe pickup definitely sounds different than the non-CuNiFe look-alikes that Fender produces. It isn't that the other is bad, just different. Lots and lots of famous players stuck regular humbuckers in the necks of their Telecasters, so, that works too.

 

[Humberto Gillan]

Yeah, I'm not even 100% sure that the WRHB bass pickups were CuNiFe designs or not. I think they were, back in the 1970's. But to be honest, I've not played one. They're pretty rare.

The I have an American Vintage II "1977 Telecaster Custom" with actual CuNiFe humbucker, like the 70's. Except the neck pocket is CNC machined, the micro-tilt neck works perfectly and it only weighs 7.70 lbs, not 10.9lbs, like the real ones from the 1970's. (there are some killer deals on these floating around...)

The CuNiFe pickup definitely sounds different than the non-CuNiFe look-alikes that Fender produces. It isn't that the other is bad, just different. Lots and lots of famous players stuck regular humbuckers in the necks of their Telecasters, so, that works too.

Yeah, i had heard the guitar versions and i totally agree, the non-CuNiFe ones sound closer to a 60's Gibson T-Top or a 70's Guild HB-1 than to the original ones, the newer CuNiFe versions sound pretty much like the originals, but i'm not that sure if they are a little hotter than the vintage ones, as they sounded to me a little overdriven, but still very clear as the originals.

 

[Humberto Gillan]

VINTAGE 1970s FENDER SETH LOVER TELECASTER BASS WIDE RANGE HUMBUCKER PICKUP - PROJECT! NEEDS REWIND | Reverb

Here i found something very interesting, it is an original from the 70's completely unassembled (sorry for my still poor english), and i can see that there is some kind of magnet there, god knows if it's AlNiCo, Ceramic or CuNiFe, but it seems that the bass itineration was not the same design as the guitar ones, so my guess is that the Modern Player/Squier Vintage Modified itineration called "TEB-101" is pretty much the same design as the originals.