Few theory questions for long-time player just getting into jazz ...

[MalcolmAmos]

Now, let's take the following a chord progression.
Cmaj7 I E7 I Am7 I D7 I Fmaj7 I G7 I Cmaj7 I Cmaj7 I
Cmaj7 I E7 I Am7 I D7 I Fmaj7 I G7 I Am7 I Am7 I
Is it C major or A minor?

Times like this I'd ask the keyboard what they are going to use and I'd do the same. That way we both will be together.

With the first progression starting and stopping with the Cma7, and the Cmaj7-Fmaj7-G7 being so strong I'd use C major.

With the second progression the Cmaj7, Fmaj7, G7 again being so strong I'd have to stay with C major. A progression of I, iii, vi, ii, IV, V moves well with itself - iii like to go to vi and as a ii and IV being sub-dominant chords like to go to a dominant chord - which they do with the V. Why it does not resolve from there I can only guess that the song writer did not want to resolve. The vi is normally a neutral chord, perhaps the song writer wanted it this way.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

Let's add some confusion.
(Second time)
Cmaj7 I E7 I Am7 I D7 I Fmaj7 I E7 I Am7 I Am7 I

Now you are just messing with what if stuff.

 

[craigie]

I would also like to venture the simple answer that by playing 2-5-1 in C the OP was playing the thirds of the 2-5-1 in Am. So th strong chord tones sound good to your ear.

 

[Phlipper]

Start with the key of C major (no black notes) and figure out the major scale, the triad (CEG) the relative minor (Am) and its triad (ACE), then the variations (flatten the third to get Cm, flatten the 5 to get diminished, sharpen the 5th to get augmented, add 7,9,11 to get those variations, etc etc.

That's basically what I did last year on guitar working thru Jody's jazz text. The first volume. Those exercises were great for reinforcing the material. I tuned up one of my neglected Les Pauls tonight and am going to go back thru some of it.

Thanks everybody for chiming in. Much appreciated.

 

[Phlipper]

ear is the most important, if you can play you are a player, if you can use your ear you are a musician

My ear and good timing was great for knocking around in bar bands all these years. But jazz is a whole 'nother can o' worms. Lol. It's amazing to me that monster players like Wes Montgomery or Django were self-taught or learned by ear/mimic.

Actually on second thought I guess they learned the same way I learned classic rock and blues, only far more complicated. But communicating ideas, songs, changes, etc in a band context is way harder without the vocabulary.

 

[craigie]

?!
Roots of 2 5 1 in Am are
B E and A.
Is B a strong chord tone of Dmin(7)?
Maybe, we can say that the OP has re-harmonized the song as
C 6 / Dm 6 / G6.
Now, it's only about one's ears to accept it or not.

Opposite. II of C = D which is the third of Bm.

 

[IamGroot]

Lots of really good stuff, esp. Mushroo. Autumn Leaves is THE song when starting out on cadences, then "All the Things you are."

May I suggest you familiarize yourself with the 7 major modes and their fingering up and down the neck. So its 2 5 1, but more specifically 2 = dorian (b3, b7), 5 = mixolydian (b7). The names are not so important as understanding the scale alteration and the fingering.

So autumn leaves is:
2 5 (dorian to mixolydian)
1 4 ( ionian to lydian)
7 3 (locrian to phrygian)
6 aeolian , the relative minor .

Again, I wouldnt get hung up on the names, just learn the numbers and their scale alterations and absorb the sound and fingerings. Again, autumn leaves is an excellent starting point.

 

[Mushroo]

Lots of really good stuff, esp. Mushroo. Autumn Leaves is THE song when starting out on cadences, then "All the Things you are."

May I suggest you familiarize yourself with the 7 major modes and their fingering up and down the neck. So its 2 5 1, but more specifically 2 = dorian (b3, b7), 5 = mixolydian (b7). The names are not so important as understanding the scale alteration and the fingering.

So autumn leaves is:
2 5 (dorian to mixolydian)
1 4 ( ionian to lydian)
7 3 (locrian to phrygian)
6 aeolian , the relative minor .

Again, I wouldnt get hung up on the names, just learn the numbers and their scale alterations and absorb the sound and fingerings. Again, autumn leaves is an excellent starting point.

Thanks for the shoutout but unfortunately I'm going to have to (politely) disagree with your advice

"Autumn Leaves" uses tonal harmony. It is not "modal jazz." I do not think "dorian - mixolydian - ionian - lydian -locrian -phrygian- aeolian" is a particularly useful or practical way to analyze the first 8 bars of this tune. In fact thinking in "modes" will produce notes that clash with the composer's melody! For example look at measure 6. The chord is B7 and the melody notes are A, B, C#, D#. If you think "B phrygian" and play B, C, D, E, F#, G, A, then your C will clash with the C# in the melody, your D will clash with the D# in the melody, and your E won't sound great against the D# either.

Understanding (and hearing) the difference between major ii-V's and minor ii-V's is basic Jazz 101 stuff. Minor ii-V's cannot be analyzed in terms of modes of the major scale. The V chord needs to have a major 3rd (to give it a dominant 7th quality) so if we want to think in terms of modes (which is fun, but not necessary) we need to look at modes of the harmonic minor or (in the case of "Autumn Leaves") melodic minor scale.

You only need two pieces of information to successfully improvise over the first 8 bars of "Autumn Leaves": think "ii-V-I-IV in G major" and "ii-V-i in E minor."

 

[IamGroot]

BTW,

Thanks for the shoutout but unfortunately I'm going to have to (politely) disagree with your advice

"Autumn Leaves" uses tonal harmony. It is not "modal jazz." I do not think "dorian - mixolydian - ionian - lydian -locrian -phrygian- aeolian" is a particularly useful or practical way to analyze the first 8 bars of this tune. In fact thinking in "modes" will produce notes that clash with the composer's melody! For example look at measure 6. The chord is B7 and the melody notes are A, B, C#, D#. If you think "B phrygian" and play B, C, D, E, F#, G, A, then your C will clash with the C# in the melody, your D will clash with the D# in the melody, and your E won't sound great against the D# either.

Understanding (and hearing) the difference between major ii-V's and minor ii-V's is basic Jazz 101 stuff. Minor ii-V's cannot be analyzed in terms of modes of the major scale. The V chord needs to have a major 3rd (to give it a dominant 7th quality) so if we want to think in terms of modes (which is fun, but not necessary) we need to look at modes of the harmonic minor or (in the case of "Autumn Leaves") melodic minor scale.

You only need two pieces of information to successfully improvise over the first 8 bars of "Autumn Leaves": think "ii-V-I-IV in G major" and "ii-V-i in E minor."

You are absolutely right. That chord is B7, not Bm7. The dom 7
gives a stronger push to resolution than Bm7 which melodic minor providd. Playing it, I noticed i made that correction and the 1 melodic minor by ear . Acrually, I sided stepped it as I used a root 5 octave on the 5 and walked up from the e minor to A. Soloing would have flagged the issue.

I learned this song on upright and I remember my instructor mentioning this, but saying just use the B7. Introducing BOTH the major and melodic minor scale at the same time to a theory newbie was something he avoided.

 

[Heavy Blue]

I obviously need to learn a ton when it comes to jazz (& theory in general) because the info in this thread just completely flies over my head. My ignorance of theory should almost be criminal.

I'm trying to get into jazz but it's difficult because it's much different than what I'm used to playing, I have no friends or anyone I play with that are into it, and TBH some of it is a little...unaccessible but there's a local singer who has an incredible voice that I would like to work with and bring to a public audience. I've listened to her sing Norah Jones tunes and it now makes me want to learn this stuff. Funny eh? Especially considering I've never been what you would call lyrically oriented.

Does anyone have a link to point me I whatever direction I need to go to even get started at understanding this?

 

[IamGroot]

If you play a little piano, "The Jazz Theory Book" by Mark Levine is great.

I rhink the best way to understand jazz theory is to start small and apply it
Google ii V I cadence

 

[Mushroo]

Does anyone have a link to point me I whatever direction I need to go to even get started at understanding this?

Best way to learn, IMHO, is to choose a classic jazz tune that you like, listen to it over and over again, and transcribe it. The first jazz album that I ever transcribed was "Kansas City 6" by Count Basie. NHOP's bass lines are very clear in the mix and easy to hear the pitch (as compared with a lot of jazz albums where the bass is muddy in the mix).

 

[Heavy Blue]

Thx you folks for the info.

 

[IamGroot]

 

[IamGroot]

I spent several hours walking and soloing over Autumn Leaves eyes closed just for the pleasure of it - not thinking theory but just making music.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Best way to learn, IMHO, is to choose a classic jazz tune that you like, listen to it over and over again, and transcribe it. The first jazz album that I ever transcribed was "Kansas City 6" by Count Basie. NHOP's bass lines are very clear in the mix and easy to hear the pitch (as compared with a lot of jazz albums where the bass is muddy in the mix).

I have this CD and you are right, it's a great album to transcribe. One of the best I'd say.

In my opinion, as soon as somebody mentions "jazz" around here, it becomes an opportunity for people to make things as complicated as possible, as all the various approaches of how to play everything ever written comes out.

If you don't know jazz, just learn the blues from this CD. That's it. Just start there and don't look in any other direction. Learn the theory of Jazz Blues. Once you get that down then move along. If you learn all these songs, you will at least know how to walk a line and have it sound authentic. Forget all that other esoteric stuff people keep trotting out.