Fifths tuning on electric

[Stubb]

Per what I've read he started using this tuning because it's pretty difficult to fall back on cliches and standard patterns when you use it.

This is why I started tuning CGDA. Probably four years or so now, with a year off back in standard somewhere in there. I really like fifths. I play totally different lines than I do in standard, but it also has the huge benefit of extending range, and on my particular instrument, resonating way, way better.

 

[sonicblue62]

Excellent responses everyone! Exactly the kind of information I have been looking for.

 

[khutch]

Although your point about small/big is a good one as a practical matter, I don't think that's why the upright is in 4ths. My understanding is that it's in 4ths because it descended from the viola da gamba family (not the violin family), and the viola da gamba family, whether large or small, tuned in 4ths (with one higher string, not applicable to a bass, sometimes tuned as a 3rd).

You might think the history of the double bass would be well known but it is not and there is "great" controversy about the parentage of the instrument. I use the quotes because it is a tempest in a teapot after all but inside that teapot of people who care about such things it is a tempest. The form of the double bass has elements of the viola de gamba family and the violin family. We know that before the EADG fourths tuning was popularized by French schools of music a variety of tunings were used for the instrument. Fifths was very popular just prior to the fourths revolution and fifths tuned basses typically had three strings tuned GDA. Speculation is that the string technology of the day did not allow for a decent low C string. A lot of the older music is written as though the double bass were tuned CGDA and this leads many to think that at one time that was the intended tuning for the instrument and composers and instrument builders were just waiting for the right strings to be made. Some time after the fourths tuning became the standard music began to be written for it. Or so say some. Other sources may disagree, as I say it is a tempest.

I actually saw a viola de gamba in concert earlier this year. They sound very nice but playing as it was over the rest of a small orchestra it was difficult to tell it from a cello without looking at it. The same concert featured a lute player too who played a theorbo for some pieces. That is an impressive instrument!

I always thought the scale length limit for fifths tuning was around the 27 inches of a cello. Do the math, fifths tuning just does not work at 34 inches. And then I read that Red Mitchell did it at 43 inches and a fair number of double bassists are following in his footsteps. So, having become disenchanted with the five string I then owned I decided to try fifths myself and loved it instantly. Yeah, you either shift more or you play differently. Either one works quite well. A lot of things are about as easy to play in fifths as fourths, some things are harder, and surprisingly at least some are actually easier. Cello music is great....

Double bassists report that fifths tuning puts them in synch with the rest of the string section for the first time in their careers. I suppose you would have to play a DB in an orchestra to fully understand that but being tuned like the rest of the kids in perfect fifths probably allows you to copy the fingerings and bowings that they use and vice versa. They report that their instruments resonate better and have a better tone too. Apparently a mathematician has studied this and concluded that the overtones of one string can excite the unvoiced strings better when the strings are tuned in fifths and that advantage translates to an electric bass too. Sometimes I find that my tuners read better if I mute the strings I am not tuning which is an indication that they are responding to the plucked string and confusing the tuner.

Even if you don't go whole hog as I have done the fifths tuning has a lot to recommend it for a creative change of pace.

 

[kohntarkosz]

CGDA is the Magma tuning, who are one of my favorite bands. Their bassist, Jannick Top, definitely got into CGDA whilst in Magma, though it is hard to tell when and where. I understand he got 'down there' in increments, starting with drop D. I think their other monster bassist, Bernard Paganotti, also got into this tuning. There are some thundering low notes on the Kohntarkosz album which I think came from down tuning. I love the song De Futura on Udu Wudu, which I think definitely gets down to a low C on some parts.

I've tried CGDA. I think I would need a properly set up bass set aside purely for this tuning. I don't know if a heavy 4-string set would do the job, or if a 5-string set is in order. Dropping a conventional E down to C makes it floppy, but tuning a heavy-set G up to A would make it unbelievably stiff. I guess there is a compromise in there.

Naturally this tuning makes sense to me. I play the mandolin on the side, and I grew up playing the violin and viola. The viola barks out in CGDA tuning. What I find with this tuning is that it kicks blues progressions into the weeds. If you want to play those sorts of things you end up with your left hand heading back towards the nut rather than heading up the neck, and there is usually one note still 'on' the string you are mentally preparing to leap off and onto the next. This is good for destroying conventions and opening up alternative voicings. Suddenly you can drop 9ths into your voicings without wrenching your pinkie out of the socket, for example. Suddenly you can comp along an octave lower than you thought possible.... all good fun, but I think it would take serious work for me to become fluent in this tuning.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

I've tried CGDA tuning on the electric bass several times over the years. It really expands arpeggiated fingering possibilities and cello music like the Bach solo suites instantly made a whole lot more sense to me. What's always dragged me back to 4ths tuning is playing a lot of guitar riff based R&B/rock/blues kinda material. That and simply not having the patience to completely make the change.

 

[Jensby design]

Thanks for your input! Could you expound a bit more on your experience with this (type of music, etc.)?
Also wondering why you decided to go 3-string.

No problem, for me it was not a huge transition I also play cello.
For the most part I use my 6-string bass tuned F#BEADG but for some songs a bass tuned in fifths is just more fun. As far as type of music, I play a lot of styles (no country). I find that if the guitarist is tuning drop-D that DAE tuned 3-string is just great.
Why a 3-string

I don't know

it sounded like a good idea at the time.
And that's a thumb rest above the D-string, its routed into the body

 

[ixlramp]

^ Love that crazy design.
Balanced sets for CGDA: 130 85 55 35 and 135 90 60 40 (Note adjacent gauges are in ratio 3:2, this is the rough rule for fifths gauges at equal tension). These are medium/light, which i recommend to allow easier shifting / stretching / chording, the chords are beautifully clear in fifths tuning.

 

[Jensby design]

^ Love that crazy design.
Balanced sets for CGDA: 130 85 55 35 and 135 90 60 40 (Note adjacent gauges are in ratio 3:2, this is the rough rule for fifths gauges at equal tension). These are medium/light, which i recommend to allow easier shifting / stretching / chording, the chords are beautifully clear in fifths tuning.

Thank you
You're right about balanced sets. The sound from string to string is exaggerated do to the farther range between strings Evening out the tension between string helps a lot.

The only down sides to fifth tuning are: it makes your bass a little more "key sensitive", and funk just got a lot harder to do.

 

[Groove Doctor]

I've tried CGDA tuning on the electric bass several times over the years. It really expands arpeggiated fingering possibilities and cello music like the Bach solo suites instantly made a whole lot more sense to me.

+1. It changes the way you think and the bass lines you hear in your mind. You develop new finger patterns, esp arpeggios become OPEN VOICINGS ie. not strictly 3rds/ 4ths, but 5ths/ 6ths/ octaves.


I read it in one of the bass guitar magazines around 1990. They had some cello suites that got me hooked. Starting here is a great entry point.


A capo with this tuning is a fun way to experiment with other keys/ tunings. Pseudo-baritone & piccolo territory.

 

[InsaneBassninja]

C G D A probably?

Yeah some people do it, not as many, but some do.

Maybe Revitlet to me is the 5th of A? E?

 

[odin70]

^ Love that crazy design.
Balanced sets for CGDA: 130 85 55 35 and 135 90 60 40 (Note adjacent gauges are in ratio 3:2, this is the rough rule for fifths gauges at equal tension). These are medium/light, which i recommend to allow easier shifting / stretching / chording, the chords are beautifully clear in fifths tuning.

I think 35 65 95 125 would be better.

 

[ixlramp]

^ That's more of a traditional middle-heavy set