Finger Positions - Related to box Patterns & Frets ?

[rydin4lifebass]

When I hear the word "position", I always thought that referred to the scale degree that you started on. For example, if I play a G Major scale using a box pattern with my second finger on the 3rd fret of the E string, I thought I'd call that first position, since I'm starting with the first note of the scale (didn't matter that I'm using my second finger, or that I'm on the third fret). Now, I'm reading some material where the first finger on the third fret is called the third position (not sure what it would be called with my second finger there). Is this just different terminology by different people or am I misunderstanding?

 

[Mushroo]

"Position" typically refers to the fret number at which you place your 1st finger. But there may be some books or teachers who use a non-standard definition of the term.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

Good question. Fingerboard for upright, fretboard for electric add to this misunderstanding. Hang on I see a long discussion coming...

I think this would depend on how and what you were taught. As I am self taught on the bass, but, with more than a few lessons on the 6 string guitar I asked Google for First and Second Position. Got all kinds of different answers.

So -- If you are using a book, go with what the book says. If you are like me just using what ever we can come up with -- here is how I see it.

First position is the first 5 frets of the fretboard. Every note you will ever need is in those five frets. Now second position has always been a little fuzzy for me and it is here that with no formal training I walk into the fog. If I want to use the G major scale I start at the 4th string 3rd fret. A @ the 5th fret, C @ the 8th, or C on the 3rd string, 3rd fret.... is C @ the 4th string 8th fret called something different than C @ the 3rd string 3rd fret? And if so what?

I'm going to stop here and hope those that hold degrees in music can help you. I'm putting the fretboard up as I'm sure we will need it.

 

[mambo4]

@Mushroo nailed it. "position" = fret (or chromatic step on a fretless instrument)
"half position" starts on an open string

@MalcolmAmos My understanding is that positions encompass a four fret span, so not sure if technically the 5th fret falls in first position .

I may have it wrong however.

[EDIT] Turns out an was wrong, see the post below by @MonetBass

 

[bfields]

Alternatively, there's this: Up Yours! Simandl Positions Up the Neck

In this kind of forum it's probably best to spell out what you mean instead of using terms like "second position". It doesn't look to me like you can assume the reader has the same definitions of those terms that you do.

 

[rydin4lifebass]

Thanks guys. I'm used to placing my second finger on the root note for the major scale box pattern. (see below)

G|---2---|-------|---3---|---4---|
D|---6---|-------|---7---|--R(8)-|
A|---3---|---4---|-------|---5---|
E|-------|---R---|-------|---2---|

So..the concept of starting with my first finger seems to go against this completely. Am I just not making the connection or am I totally missing something?

 

[Mushroo]

"Position" tells you where to put your fingers; it has nothing to do with musical sounds. For example, if you are in 1st position, you could play minor scales, major scales, "Mary had a Little Lamb," etc.

I think the concept you are describing is "scale degrees." For example, if you are in the key of C Major, and your bass line starts on the note D, you'd say that is the "second scale degree" or just the "2nd" for short.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

Thanks guys. I'm used to placing my second finger on the root note for the major scale box pattern. (see below)

So..the concept of starting with my first finger seems to go against this completely. Am I just not making the connection or am I totally missing something?

...Index...Middle..Ring....Little
G|---2---|-------|---3---|---4---|
D|---6---|-------|---7---|--R(8)-|
A|---3---|---4---|-------|---5---|
E|-------|---R---|-------|---2---|

What you are doing is correct. Let the term first position, second position drop by the wayside right now I think it is doing more harm than good.

 

[mambo4]

the concept of starting with my first finger seems to go against this completely.

You may begin playing your shapes with any finger in any position.
The position is the simply the fret that is located under your first finger
It is the lowest possible fret you can play on without having to shift your hand
you don't have to start playing with that fret / finger.

for example if you played a G major scale using the box pattern discussed above
your first note would be on the 3rd fret E string -but it's not 3rd position.
because the lowest fret in the scale would be the second fret
(when you hit the B on the A string)
so it's second position

in other words look at the whole 4 fret span of your "box" shape
find the fret closest to the nut
that's your position #

 

[rydin4lifebass]

Thanks guys. It sounds like I was interchanging the works position and pattern a little bit. I guess I was looking at the box pattern as some type of "second pattern", or something like that and I was confusing this with pattern.

When we talk about the shapes that we can play (one of which is the example posted earlier), are there specific numbers asssoicated with those? For example, is that box pattern a certain number as far as patterns go or do we really not talk about them in those terms?

 

[Mushroo]

Generally speaking, most of the times, the composer indicates the notes (pitches) and it is up to the performer to choose a comfortable fingering. So a G Major scale (just to choose a random example) is notated the same way whether you choose to start with your 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th finger.

If it is important to the composer that a certain fingering be used, there are a few different ways to notate that, the most common being TAB.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

........When we talk about the shapes that we can play (one of which is the example posted earlier), are there specific numbers asssoicated with those? For example, is that box pattern a certain number as far as patterns go or do we really not talk about them in those terms?

I'll answer it this way.... I have one pattern, the one you have listed, and then I adapt it to play what I need, i.e. if I want the natural minor scale from that major scale box I flat the 3, 6 & 7. That gives me the Natural minor scale.

Now this means I need to know the "spelling" for all the other things. I think of all the other things as spellings, not patterns. I have one pattern and I adapt it to fit what I need.

C = R-3-5
C7= R-3-5-b7
C Major Scale = R-2-3-4-5-6-7
C Dorian = R-2-b3-4-5-6-b7
​

That getting started sticky we gave you has all the other spellings you may need right now.

That does not mean this has to be your way, it's just what I do. Help yourself if you like. Some of the books have a different pattern of dots for all of the above. After awhile it dawned on me that I could use just one pattern and then adjust it for what I needed. But, I would need to know the spelling for what I need.

http://www.smithfowler.org/music/Chord_Formulas.htm?i=1 You will not need all of those, but, if you do here is the place to find them.

 

[mambo4]

There are certainly several "box" patterns out there in the wild, but the closest I have seen to naming convention is the CAGED system on guitar.
Essentially each "box" is related to the shape of one of those open chords C A G E D

But there's the thing: the boxes are only the first step. As you learn, try to free yourself of limiting 4 fret spans.
the shapes you first learn will fall away and be replaced by your own library of riffs and runs, and especially stylistic understanding,
and eventually you realize that any note can be an option for a given key or scale or chord.

 

[Spin Doctor]

@Mushroo nailed it. "position" = fret (or chromatic step on a fretless instrument)
"half position" starts on an open string

@MalcolmAmos My understanding is that positions encompass a four fret span, so not sure if technically the 5th fret falls in first position .

I may have it wrong however.

I've never really understood the whole "position" thing because it seemed pretty arbitrary. But I must admit that I've not given it a lot of thought.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Thanks guys. I'm used to placing my second finger on the root note for the major scale box pattern. (see below)

G|---2---|-------|---3---|---4---|
D|---6---|-------|---7---|--R(8)-|
A|---3---|---4---|-------|---5---|
E|-------|---R---|-------|---2---|

So..the concept of starting with my first finger seems to go against this completely. Am I just not making the connection or am I totally missing something?

If you use this fingering, which uses 3 notes per string, then you will start on the first finger. This example is of the F major scale. The numbers indicate the digits you use to finger the scale. In the space between the 1 and 2 on the E and A strings, you shift your entire hand as a single unit. You DO NOT stretch to make that shift.

G|-------|---1--|---2---|-------|---4---|
D|-------|---1--|---2---|-------|---4---|
A|----1--|------|---2----|------|---4---|
E|----1--|------|---2----|------|---4---|

 

[Bondobass]

@Mushroo nailed it. "position" = fret (or chromatic step on a fretless instrument)
"half position" starts on an open string

@MalcolmAmos My understanding is that positions encompass a four fret span, so not sure if technically the 5th fret falls in first position .

I may have it wrong however.

Interesting, I always thought that the "Open Position" started a note open or maybe used open notes in your scale, or something, I dunno I just call it that.

 

[MonetBass]

I've never really understood the whole "position" thing because it seemed pretty arbitrary. But I must admit that I've not given it a lot of thought.

As a DB player, you learn fingering positions pretty early on. Maybe this will help:

Sure, I think about it on electric bass when playing from sheet music. Otherwise, it doesn't really enter my mind.

 

[Spin Doctor]

As a DB player, you learn fingering positions pretty early on. Maybe this will help:
View attachment 2869779
Sure, I think about it on electric bass when playing from sheet music. Otherwise, it doesn't really enter my mind.

Cool, thank you!

 

[rydin4lifebass]

This is great stuff guys...thank you! I've definitely got some things to work on!!

 

[rydin4lifebass]

If you use this fingering, which uses 3 notes per string, then you will start on the first finger. This example is of the F major scale. The numbers indicate the digits you use to finger the scale. In the space between the 1 and 2 on the E and A strings, you shift your entire hand as a single unit. You DO NOT stretch to make that shift.

G|-------|---1--|---2---|-------|---4---|
D|-------|---1--|---2---|-------|---4---|
A|----1--|------|---2----|------|---4---|
E|----1--|------|---2----|------|---4---|

Any particular reason you'd play a scale that way instead of the box pattern like mentioned in my previous post or is that personal preference?