Flats - Do I need to man-up?

[PWRL]

I have to recommend TI flats for anybody used to tension and pliability of rounds. Others would be Chromes and Cobalts (although I didn't care for the tension balance on Cobalts, they're nice strings) and GHS Preassurewounds, even though they're half-round as opposed to flat. If you're coming off of D'Addario 105s, you might want to try the light gauge Chromes (100s) if you go that direction.

My personal favorites are TIs, although they do take quite a while to truly break in. It's a labor of love, though.

Somebody mentioned flats having to break in, and of course that is true.

 

[Ripper75]

Try a lighter gauge Earnie Ball Cobalt Flats. I’m a dyed in the wool SSRW player, but the cobalt flats have enough zing to not be just boom and muddy thud. They have a midrange texture.

By going with 100s or 95 gauge, it will offset the higher tension feel. I like either 95 or 100 as my e string, and generally play a 105 for my rounds.

The flats will feel sticky, as you have more surface contact that with rounds, so more friction. Either try using finger ease to lube the strings until you get used to playing them, and wipe them down after you play as well. You will eventually get used to playing them. I go back and forth, but they will make my fingers hurt a little if I play them for long periods compared to the rounds.

Starting to think flats aren't for me either. Happen to know if you can find those Cobalt Flats in extra long or have suggestions on flats that are extra long and might have some of that midrange texture..? I'm currently playing Rotosound RS77EL and I'm missing the punch of roundwounds also but love how the flatwounds feel and that they don't eat my frets. I play a Gibson Ripper strung through so I need extra longs and I prefer heavier gauges. thnx

 

[OogieWaWa]

9050s guy here, all the way. Currently trying the LaBella Deep Talkin's; quite the long break-in before I was happy. To be fair I should have gone heavier, I really like .045-.105s best. I'll probably try the TIs soon, we'll see.

"Grabby" flats at first? Well ... So OK, some chemistry/science to follow: nothing too heady. Go to the next post now if you aren't interested.

Chromes and Cobalts aren't all chromium and cobalt; those are components of certain types of stainless steel. Nickel is another one, but it doesn't sound as exciting and other strings are already called that. The metal may be high in it's namesake, but, well, marketing/niche.

When worked/formed/scraped they form an oxide layer that is tough and not very reactive; it oxidizes either over time exposed to air over a few days, or by being passivated (using an acid to "pickle" them.) That's what makes them "stainless."

When that happens the surface layer is not smooth and shiny like some metals, it looks like a nickel (hence the name of the coin.) It's non-iron rust, basically, which is much better than iron rust because it's protective. So the strings can last a very long time without changing. Eventually.

In addition the layer has a "fluffy" part, just like rust, that wears off over time (like almost a month, depending; I usually get through it in less than a week.) That makes for the grabby feel at first until your fingers polish the surface. It's also why your fingers may have some of the oxide on them initially. And it's also why the tone takes time to come in, as the dullness wears out; you can hear it as well as feel it! With all the surface area of flats it takes some time, whereas for stainless or nickel rounds only the tops of the wrap wear off and do that very quickly, like in the first few minutes of playing, and there's not much surface to grab, anyway.

By the way, it continues to wear very slightly and re-oxidize forever in use. Some folks are sensitive to those oxides, nickel in particular, so you may see something like someone doing bass videos wearing gloves, as an example! Plus that may even explain part of the mysterious bad feeling some folks get when trying flats or even nickel rounds.

OK, sorry, 40 year real-world nuke power plant operator/industrial trainer mode off, carry on...

 

[Jason Hollar]

I’m a 20+ year Roto77 user and yes flats do require a break in period.

Also been using Thomastik Spiricores on my upright but never actually tried the electric bass TI’s. Might have to give their 36” super long scale set a try on my 5 string.

 

[Hypercaffium]

^^^ this!
I also was a rounds aficionado but since I discovered the punch of flatwound strings, with the right setup, and the fact that, in reality, I don’t dislike playing with a sight LG higher strings tension, I’m putting flats in all my instruments ...

I still love and use both, for different things. I also must say that Cobalts are an half between rounds and flats, and definitely not my favourite flats. I prefer smoother flats, in terms of both touch and tone.

 

[Gianni "Orlandez" Orlati]

9050s guy here, all the way. Currently trying the LaBella Deep Talkin's; quite the long break-in before I was happy. To be fair I should have gone heavier, I really like .045-.105s best. I'll probably try the TIs soon, we'll see.

"Grabby" flats at first? Well ... So OK, some chemistry/science to follow: nothing too heady. Go to the next post now if you aren't interested.

Chromes and Cobalts aren't all chromium and cobalt; those are components of certain types of stainless steel. Nickel is another one, but it doesn't sound as exciting and other strings are already called that. The metal may be high in it's namesake, but, well, marketing/niche.

When worked/formed/scraped they form an oxide layer that is tough and not very reactive; it oxidizes either over time exposed to air over a few days, or by being passivated (using an acid to "pickle" them.) That's what makes them "stainless."

When that happens the surface layer is not smooth and shiny like some metals, it looks like a nickel (hence the name of the coin.) It's non-iron rust, basically, which is much better than iron rust because it's protective. So the strings can last a very long time without changing. Eventually.

In addition the layer has a "fluffy" part, just like rust, that wears off over time (like almost a month, depending; I usually get through it in less than a week.) That makes for the grabby feel at first until your fingers polish the surface. It's also why your fingers may have some of the oxide on them initially. And it's also why the tone takes time to come in, as the dullness wears out; you can hear it as well as feel it! With all the surface area of flats it takes some time, whereas for stainless or nickel rounds only the tops of the wrap wear off and do that very quickly, like in the first few minutes of playing, and there's not much surface to grab, anyway.

By the way, it continues to wear very slightly and re-oxidize forever in use. Some folks are sensitive to those oxides, nickel in particular, so you may see something like someone doing bass videos wearing gloves, as an example! Plus that may even explain part of the mysterious bad feeling some folks get when trying flats or even nickel rounds.

OK, sorry, 40 year real-world nuke power plant operator/industrial trainer mode off, carry on...

this is real hands-on knowledge

 

[lizardking837]

I'd say try another brand. In the past I've used D'addario, Fender and Rotosound flats. I liked the D'addarios best because they weren't too stiff but they didn't feel like rubber bands. They also didn't feel 'sticky' like you had mentioned. The Rotos were good for playing live on a P in a power trio, because when I opened the tone knob I was able to catch some of their brightness while still keeping the thud we needed.

The Fenders were kind of like a compromise between the two, I messed up and went with a light gauge and they were a little too floppy for what I needed.

 

[LoTone]

How about some GHS Pressurewounds instead?

• Warmth (check)
• Punch (check)
• Feel (check) (more grippy than flats fore sure)

Less expensive than flats to boot. Give it a shot.

 

[JMacBass65]

Bit of background - I play in a Country Rock band, a 60s band, and a Blues Rock band. All fairly traditional stuff, with not an ounce of slapping in sight, fingerstyle (and palm mute) only..! I normally play a Fender Jazz with old D'Addario nickel rounds on it (45-105), either both pickups or front pickup only, but also occasionally take my P with the same type of rounds. The sound I am going for is deep, defined and muscular.

I decided, as everyone seems to love them these days, and specifically due to the vibe of the 60s band, to purchase a set of Flats - Fender 45-100 to be specific, after a little bit of research on here and elsewhere.

Played a gig with them tonight on the P (as I didn't want to muck about with the setup on my Jazz, which is my baby) - very disappointing..... The bad bits: the feel - they feel like cables, and sticky so hard to move around on. Also felt like harder work to fret; the sound - the boom is there, but almost too much at times. It seems like there is little of the "finesse" that I get with the rounds. It's hard to describe, and could be to do with readjusting my ears.

So, my question is, do I need to just admit defeat and go back to my rounds, or am I missing a trick? All reasonable suggestions considered!

You simply bought the wrong set of flats for you. Based on your comments, I'd suggest TI Jazz Flats.

Dave,
I agree with much of what you say. I have been playing Rotosound 77 Jazz Flats for the past month, after always playing D'Addario rounds or GHS Pressurewounds. The Jazz 77s are excellent quality and sound great, but for me the Flats are not as comfortable or as easy to play as the others. This is my subjective feeling and not a reflection of the strings. The Flats are higher tension so they feel stiffer and more like cables to me, and I have to work harder to fret notes. There is less 'finesse' (as you put it) in my fretting, movement around the fretboard, and in the dynamics of my playing. I feel like I am mostly 'muscling' them. I know many people love Flats, and I am glad I tried them, but they are not for me.
Oddly, even though Flats are often associated with mellower styles of music, I think they would be awesome for Metal or Punk using a pick, when you are really wailing on the strings.

Everything you described is why I don't use the Roto flats anymore. Loved the sound, but simply too hard to work with once I tried the TIs.

 

[BwanaDust]

Flats suck.

Not as much as your website!

 

[MaxC]

I have flats on all my bass’s except one and they are not an aggressive wind.
I know that “piano” twang can be desirable in some types of music but I personally find the full bottom to be what I need most.
Also after 50 years of playing my technique ain't gonna improve and I squeak with rounds.
Just one old pickers experience....

 

[4StringDave]

... according to my experience, Chromes are slightly brighter and punchier than Fender’s flats .. I personally like how Chromes feel and sound ... a nice in-between for the OP may be constituted by D’Addario Half-Rounds which sound more like flats but are characterised by a lesser tension than Chromes ..

I had a set of D'Addario half rounds many years ago, which were hideously sticky, much worse than these flats, so I'll give that a miss. I'm thinking Pressurewounds might be the ticket.

 

[BwanaDust]

I don't know. I've got two P-basses. The TF fretless has SR Sunbeams, which sound and play fantastic. The fretted has Rotosound SM77 Monel Jazz Flats (40-100). I don't find them particularly difficult to play and they are very expressive. I supposed if you bore down on them, dug in and said "to hell with dynamics" they might hurt after a while. I find that they encourage a more dynamic touch.

If you are a heavy handed player, they will fight back and hurt you by the end of the night.

I also love the way they sound right out of the "box." I recently put new ones on my fretted P, after a few years and I was blown away by the sound. They still sounded nice and mellow at lower dynamics, but when you lay into them they just explode. I'm thinking that I will have to start changing them out a lot more often.

Anyway... I guess everyone has their preferences.

 

[Coolhandjjl]

EQing for flats is a bit different as well. An HPF goes miles for helping. Sounds counter-intuitive, but they do help.

I also recommend TI Flats. With the right bass, and proper setup, they can actually 'growl'.
Supple, and able to be easily finessed.
You may be able to get by w/o an HPF with these as well.

BUT DO NOT JUDGE TI FLATS THE DAY YOU PUT THEM ON!

TI Jazz Flats. Leave them on for at least a month or so before making any final judgment. Then if you don’t like them you should be able to sell them on TB classified for 80% of what you paid for them...

And don't cut them. Better resale

 

[dfoehr]

Yes

 

[4StringDave]

9050s guy here, all the way. Currently trying the LaBella Deep Talkin's; quite the long break-in before I was happy. To be fair I should have gone heavier, I really like .045-.105s best. I'll probably try the TIs soon, we'll see.

"Grabby" flats at first? Well ... So OK, some chemistry/science to follow: nothing too heady. Go to the next post now if you aren't interested.

Chromes and Cobalts aren't all chromium and cobalt; those are components of certain types of stainless steel. Nickel is another one, but it doesn't sound as exciting and other strings are already called that. The metal may be high in it's namesake, but, well, marketing/niche.

When worked/formed/scraped they form an oxide layer that is tough and not very reactive; it oxidizes either over time exposed to air over a few days, or by being passivated (using an acid to "pickle" them.) That's what makes them "stainless."

When that happens the surface layer is not smooth and shiny like some metals, it looks like a nickel (hence the name of the coin.) It's non-iron rust, basically, which is much better than iron rust because it's protective. So the strings can last a very long time without changing. Eventually.

In addition the layer has a "fluffy" part, just like rust, that wears off over time (like almost a month, depending; I usually get through it in less than a week.) That makes for the grabby feel at first until your fingers polish the surface. It's also why your fingers may have some of the oxide on them initially. And it's also why the tone takes time to come in, as the dullness wears out; you can hear it as well as feel it! With all the surface area of flats it takes some time, whereas for stainless or nickel rounds only the tops of the wrap wear off and do that very quickly, like in the first few minutes of playing, and there's not much surface to grab, anyway.

By the way, it continues to wear very slightly and re-oxidize forever in use. Some folks are sensitive to those oxides, nickel in particular, so you may see something like someone doing bass videos wearing gloves, as an example! Plus that may even explain part of the mysterious bad feeling some folks get when trying flats or even nickel rounds.

OK, sorry, 40 year real-world nuke power plant operator/industrial trainer mode off, carry on...

Very informative post - thanks!

 

[bassliner50]

Finger style and no slapping for me as well. I tried La Bella flats and was disappointed. Went back to my SS RW's. .050-.105. I get good playing response from these and a variety of musical tones which are not abrasive or over the top. Just play what works for you best.

 

[Hounddog409]

Bit of background - I play in a Country Rock band, a 60s band, and a Blues Rock band. All fairly traditional stuff, with not an ounce of slapping in sight, fingerstyle (and palm mute) only..! I normally play a Fender Jazz with old D'Addario nickel rounds on it (45-105), either both pickups or front pickup only, but also occasionally take my P with the same type of rounds. The sound I am going for is deep, defined and muscular.

I decided, as everyone seems to love them these days, and specifically due to the vibe of the 60s band, to purchase a set of Flats - Fender 45-100 to be specific, after a little bit of research on here and elsewhere.

Played a gig with them tonight on the P (as I didn't want to muck about with the setup on my Jazz, which is my baby) - very disappointing..... The bad bits: the feel - they feel like cables, and sticky so hard to move around on. Also felt like harder work to fret; the sound - the boom is there, but almost too much at times. It seems like there is little of the "finesse" that I get with the rounds. It's hard to describe, and could be to do with readjusting my ears.

So, my question is, do I need to just admit defeat and go back to my rounds, or am I missing a trick? All reasonable suggestions considered!

Did you adjust your amp settings? Highly doubtful rounds and flats would have same settings to achieve desired sound.

 

[4StringDave]

I have flats on all my bass’s except one and they are not an aggressive wind.
I know that “piano” twang can be desirable in some types of music but I personally find the full bottom to be what I need most.
Also after 50 years of playing my technique ain't gonna improve and I squeak with rounds.
Just one old pickers experience....

I definitely don't like, and don't have, a piano twang sound with my rounds. I like them broken in for sound. It's more the feel that's putting me off the flats

 

[dan1952]

Flats suck.

Well-thought, carefully considered post. Congratulations.