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For engineers: Studio mix vs live mix

RasGK

RasGK

Mar 28, 2011
86
105
38
Mexico city
#1
Hi. I'm a professional bass player, and I've been taking audio lessons and a studio recording course for the last year or so, but I have come across with one question I hope the engineers around here can answer.
I've learned that when mixing in a studio is helpful to give each instrument a certain space in the frequency spectrum so that you can hear them clearly, for example, that is good to cut off some of the lows from around 40 to 100 hz in the bass to leave some space for the kick drum or viceversa, depending on the style, or to cut some of the low-mid frequencies of the hi-hat to leave space for the voice or guitar,etc, and I was wondering if in a live mixing situation it works the same way and you have to eq the instruments having that in mind, or if you can let the instruments to sound full individually and make the general mix work that way?
Thanks for your input.
 
#2
Personally, I bring a recording mindset with me when I mix live gigs. I use EQ like a scalpel, cutting out everything that I don't want in a particular signal.

For example, I often dump the lows completely out of the vocals, guitars and snare, the highs out of the guitars and sometimes bass, the mids out of the kick, so on and so forth. The objective is to get each instrument into it's own frequency range, so that there's as little masking as possible. The reason that works is, the "center" frequency for the low and high shelf EQ on most boards is around 100Hz and 10kHz, respectively.
And truth be told, there's very little in the way of important stuff above 10k, and only kick and bass (maybe floor tom in some situations) should be anywhere near 100Hz.
So, cutting as much lows out of non-bass instruments as you can opens up more space for the bass instruments to inhabit.
Likewise, cutting highs out of the guitars helps keep them out of the vocals, and cutting low-mids from the vocals helps them cut through the wall of guitars.

You'll notice I do a lot of cutting, but I didn't really mention boosting. That's because you should always cut before you boost. If something sounds like it needs more high mids, try cutting high mids from something else first. The upper midrange is a minefield, and the best way to navigate it is the mantra 'less is more'. The fewer things pumping lots of signal in the 1-3kHz area, the better.

Focus on getting the vocals out front first; everything else is secondary. If the vocals aren't loud enough, the mix is bad, no matter how awesome the kick sounds. That's a common mistake, and cause for a lot of complaints. Don't fall into the trap.

Sorry for the novel; hope it helps.
 
#6
DuraMorte said:
Personally, I bring a recording mindset with me when I mix live gigs. I use EQ like a scalpel, .
Click to expand...

Lately I'm being pressed into the mixer guy from the stage. I have (IMHO) a good system and we are phasing out our FOH person due to money issues and he is kind of a grouch. Any way I am struggling with which friqencies to cut etc. I come from an analog Mackie/Mizwhiz world and now use a Presonus 16.0.2 board with 3 parametric EQ's. I am used to fixed bands with maybe a shiftable mid. I am doing some of the things you mention and I truly get where you are coming from. This would make a wonderful stickie if yould elaborate a bit more in depth as to which frequencies are best for all major instrumenst. :hyper:

Thank you

Chris
 
#7
musicman7722 said:
Lately I'm being pressed into the mixer guy from the stage. I have (IMHO) a good system and we are phasing out our FOH person due to money issues and he is kind of a grouch. Any way I am struggling with which friqencies to cut etc. I come from an analog Mackie/Mizwhiz world and now use a Presonus 16.0.2 board with 3 parametric EQ's. I am used to fixed bands with maybe a shiftable mid. I am doing some of the things you mention and I truly get where you are coming from. This would make a wonderful stickie if yould elaborate a bit more in depth as to which frequencies are best for all major instrumenst. :hyper:

Thank you

Chris
Click to expand...

You can find the frequency range of any instrument in Wikipedia but you'll need some way to know what you're doing to those instruments. If you think you'll be able to "use your ears" to dial in a good/great mix, it's not gonna happen- especially at the beginning. It may not even happen much later because not every person will ever "get it". You'll also need to learn about acoustics and human hearing if you really want to be able to mix properly, IMO.
 
#8
1958Bassman said:
If you think you'll be able to "use your ears" to dial in a good/great mix, it's not gonna happen
Click to expand...

On the contrary, using your ears is critical. There is no single formula or recipe that you follow in order to guarantee good sound out front.
You have to listen, and make adjustments. What adjustments to make in a given scenario will get easier and faster when you've learned what frequencies and masking sound like, but trial and error will get you there eventually. Experience just makes the trial and error part shorter and less errorful. :)

Live mixing is a whole different ballgame from studio mixing, but the goal is always the same: great sound.
 
#12
JimmyM said:
Where did DuraMonte come from and why hasn't he posted more? We need more good sense posting like that!
Click to expand...

1) It's Morte, not Monte. ;)
2) I am commonly found in the RGE section, dispensing advice and wisdom to the amateur recordists in our midst. I also frequent the Reaper forum, hence the recording aspect.

Thanks, everyone, for appreciating the long, rambling, semi-coherent post from last night. I've learned a lot from this forum; it's nice to give back. :D
 
#14
I carry over most of my studio mixing ideals. Our usual soundman at my church makes 2 huge mistakes:
1. In an attempt to make the vocalists sound huge and awesome, he boosts the lows and levels or cuts the lo-mid/highs. The result is really loud, boomy singers that sound like they're drunk - can't make out much of what they're saying. Better to HPF from 120-160, slight boost at 4K for clarity if needed, and maybe a hi-shelf at 12K if the Mic doesn't give "air" on its own.

2. For whatever reason, he likes the keys loud and huge. A bottom boost, and dominating the instrument field. This, coupled with a keyboardist who doesn't know her boundaries not only masks the guitars, bass, and vocals, but contributes to a nasty buildup around 250Hz that makes everything sound very muffled and dull.

So part of his problem is that he doesn't know how to deal with the stage monitors. When those things are loud enough to contribute to buildup in the lows, he just simply brings down the main fader, rather than perhaps EQ'ing a bit of that out of the mains to blend in more mids and highs. That right there is one of the main differences between studio and live mixing.
 
#15
Samsound said:
So part of his problem is that he doesn't know how to deal with the stage monitors. When those things are loud enough to contribute to buildup in the lows, he just simply brings down the main fader, rather than perhaps EQ'ing a bit of that out of the mains to blend in more mids and highs. That right there is one of the main differences between studio and live mixing.
Click to expand...

If the stage monitors are pumping out that much low end, then they need an EQ strapped across them, with all the faders below 400Hz bottomed out.
There's no need to have that much low end in the monitors; the vocalists need to hear their notes, in the upper midrange.
If the bass player uses a monitor to hear himself in lieu of an amp, then his monitor send needs some low end... but the vocalists don't.
 
#16
DuraMorte said:
If the stage monitors are pumping out that much low end, then they need an EQ strapped across them, with all the faders below 400Hz bottomed out.
There's no need to have that much low end in the monitors; the vocalists need to hear their notes, in the upper midrange.
If the bass player uses a monitor to hear himself in lieu of an amp, then his monitor send needs some low end... but the vocalists don't.
Click to expand...

What I meant is that its the sound coming from the backs and sides of the monitors, which loses the detail and clarity of the direct sound.
 
#17
Samsound said:
What I meant is that its the sound coming from the backs and sides of the monitors, which loses the detail and clarity of the direct sound.
Click to expand...

Right... so cut that sub-400Hz stuff out completely. That way, the only thing coming out of the monitors will be the directional higher frequencies, and the problem will pretty much vanish.
 
#18
DuraMorte said:
Right... so cut that sub-400Hz stuff out completely. That way, the only thing coming out of the monitors will be the directional higher frequencies, and the problem will pretty much vanish.
Click to expand...

We don't have separate EQ for the monitors. If we did, I think it would make his head spin. That's really my point, is that he doesn't know how to use EQ, other than to make everyone boomy and dull.
 

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