Double Bass Fortissimo bow technique

[MisterBeagle]

This question arose in me while playing Tchaikovsky's sixth, third movement. While playing fortissimo passages, is it more effective (in terms of safety, technique, tone, feel) to either apply more pressure with your:
1) Thumb (German-grip)
2) Wrist (German, once again)
3) Forearm

Or would it be best to just use more bow? I've tried such, but I lose plenty of grip. I've also tried playing closer to the bridge, but it only brings about the same effect.

My question is, what is best for ff playing?

 

[Cory Palmer]

This question arose in me while playing Tchaikovsky's sixth, third movement. While playing fortissimo passages, is it more effective (in terms of safety, technique, tone, feel) to either apply more pressure with your:
1) Thumb (German-grip)
2) Wrist (German, once again)
3) Forearm

Or would it be best to just use more bow? I've tried such, but I lose plenty of grip. I've also tried playing closer to the bridge, but it only brings about the same effect.

My question is, what is best for ff playing?

When I'm playing ff most of the pressure goes through my thumb. Keep your wrist locked so that you don't lose any strength. Make sure that you don't try to get ff by rotating your elbow up. I got in the habit of doing that and my elbow started to hurt. It's also not that effective. Keep your elbow down and allow the weight of your arm to go into the string.

More bow speed doesn't necessarily mean a louder sound. A lot of the time you can get a louder sound by using a slower bow and more pressure. It depends on the quality of sound that you want.

Remember that a clear sound will appear louder than a loud sound that is not clear. If the notes are crunchy and there is a lot of extra noise the notes will not be clear.

 

[Eli_Upright12]

Play closer to the bridge with less bow speed. You can also practice this with long tones, and when I say slow bow I mean like it almost doesnt seem like its even moving. with the Technique i can play louder than the rest of my section no problem, its the same technique that Gary Karr and other soloists use to be heard over whole orchestras.

 

[jallenbass]

Keep your wrist locked so that you don't lose any strength.

I'm not sure what you mean by this but locking leads to tension and reduces agility. I try to use only as much strength as needed to support my arm weight while keeping everything as loose and flowing as possible. Galamian used the analogy of your muscles as springs. Some are stiff and some are loose but all are flexible.

 

[Cory Palmer]

When I say lock I don't mean tense up your muscles. I mean kept your wrist firm so there is no unnecessary movement. A lot of players keep very loose wrists when they play. I used play with a very loose wrist and there was a lack of control because of that. It took a little while to get rid of the floppy wrist. Once I made the change I had a lot more control of the sound I produced.

Think about how you would use your wrist for sports. Take hitting a baseball with a bat. You wouldn't let you wrist bend during the swing. The baseball wouldn't travel as far if you let your wrist break. Same thing with a golf club or any sport that uses a stick. You lose power if you let your wrist bend but you don't tense up the muscles to keep your wrist locked. The wrist still has a little bit of give but it shouldn't be floppy at all.

 

[jallenbass]

When hitting a golf ball the wrists are in motion at impact.

It depends on the speed of the passage. Faster notes will have less wrist and finger movement than slower notes.

For me it was always the opposite of your experince with regard to the wrist and fingers. If they don't move I have less agility. But I emphasize that they are never floppy. That's different.

 

[Rovic]

Play closer to the bridge with less bow speed. You can also practice this with long tones, and when I say slow bow I mean like it almost doesnt seem like its even moving. with the Technique i can play louder than the rest of my section no problem, its the same technique that Gary Karr and other soloists use to be heard over whole orchestras.

that's because you change the colour, but it's louder indeed.. But for orchestra playing it's allmost useless since you have to make a common sound and NOT have to play louder then the rest of your section

 

[Cory Palmer]

I never said that I don't move my fingers. My fingers are where most of the control comes from and can move a lot depending on what I'm playing.

Maybe I should have replaced "lock" with "firm". Saying that I lock my wrist probably has too many connotations towards tenseness and immobility.

I suggest that people experiment with using different muscles to control the bow. I try to use all the muscles from my back to the tips of my fingers and they all have slightly different roles.

 

[Andrew McGregor]

that's because you change the colour, but it's louder indeed.. But for orchestra playing it's allmost useless since you have to make a common sound and NOT have to play louder then the rest of your section

Sure… but the section sounds absolutely phenomenal when you ALL do that. And there are even occasions to try to get the cellos to do it as well. Not really appropriate for Beethoven, but for later music it's an option, and IMO the only way for Shostakovitch.

 

[kpo]

Sure… but the section sounds absolutely phenomenal when you ALL do that. And there are even occasions to try to get the cellos to do it as well. Not really appropriate for Beethoven, but for later music it's an option, and IMO the only way for Shostakovitch.

Getting a bigger, brighter tone this way certainly reduces the tension you need, and I find it preferrable to other methods, especially in Tchaikowski, as per the original question in this thread... his music is so loud, long and slow-moving that "Gary Karr-ing It" is perfectly appropriate.