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Double Bass French bow hold question

Ketbass

Supporting Member
Jun 20, 2020
704
1,068
Dayton, OH
So I don’t remember where I saw this, but I started playing with a French bow with my thumb under the ferrule and all the other fingers where they’re supposed to be. I never could really see where the thumb went on most pictures. Recently watching a few videos and reading a recent post, the blue/green dot post of where to put the thumb, I started trying this to maximize form. So with a good deal of arthritis and nerve pain in the thumb base, I can’t get my thumb to relax in that little area under the stick without sending it into seizure - literally. I have looked at this every way I can, but still can’t get the stick to draw properly in this position.

So fast forward, I’m looking online for “alternate ways to use the French bow hold and I ran across a really detailed clear explanation of French bow holds by Jason Heath. It says that the way I was holding the bow with my thumb under the ferrule is a great way for beginner bow students to start, but later I should be working up to the correct hand position. So:

1. Why shouldn’t I continue this way as I have learned to play very decently like this? Yes without a teacher. Different discussion.
2. The correct bow hold is really quite painful to do. Like nerve screaming painful. I am not looking to up my game to audition for an orchestra. Just use the bow to draw simple lines behind folk/original compositions and keep focused on my intonation. And that’s working well with no pain.
3. The physics of having the thumb so close to the other fingers under the stick, doesn’t leverage the thumb tendons as efficiently as having the thumb farther away, as under the ferrule does.
4. No matter how I get the correct position with the bow off the bass, I can’t get my hands and fingers to draw on the bass without the weight of the bow pulling down my thumb and fingers out of position. Or pain… Think like the doctor who keeps asking you to hold your mouth open and sticks a tongue depressor down you throat and each time your mouth gags and closes before they just give up. For me anyway. I know, another different discussion….
5. I know a German bow might be the answer, but I already own this nice French bow and spending more money on a different bow is my last option. I want this to work.

If there is an obvious reason not to continue my current method, PLEASE, PLEASE tell me; like being crippled. If it’s for more nuanced, technical passages, maybe someone can explain to me the physics behind that too. Thank you for reading all this.
 
There are a number of us who are big fans of Rabbath who use a piece of rubber tubing to bulk up that area of the bow where your thumb goes. You can buy them premade for a few bucks from Quantum and Gollihur and others. I have the Quantum one, they sprinkle a little corn starch in them to help them slide up and on to where it goes and they chamfer the edges, plus it’s black rubber so it looks a little nicer. My first one was literally just surgical tubing I bought from George Vance at a masterclass. Using the tubing grip It also helps to grow your right thumbnail out a bit. It kind of acts like a cleat or an anchor in the soft rubber and decreases the need to hold on so tight.
 
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apparently the cello players are on to it as well, this photo is from Linda West Cellos, but it gives a clear illustration of the idea. Ages ago I shattered my right wrist and there are screws holding it all together, including the base of my thumb. I’ve been using French bow with one of these grips pain free for ages. If you are committed to French bow, this may help you as well, there’s even a coupon code for 50% off. They did a whole 3D motion capture thing. You can pause it and rotate angles to look at his hand from wherever you want. It may be very helpful for you.

Store | Art of the Bow
 
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a piece of rubber tubing to bulk up that area of the bow where your thumb goes.



View attachment 4968676
apparently the cello players are on to it as well, this photo is from Linda West Cellos, but it gives a clear illustration of the idea.

I've used all kinds of rubber tubing, but still can get pretty serious thumb pain if I overdo it, with my thumb both on the stick and in the frog. (french or italian hold)

I'm curious about @Ketbass 's question: What are the downsides to continuing to use the "beginner" hold, thumb under the frog?

If it sounds good, and doesn't hurt, what's the issue? (given @Ketbass's goals)
 
I don't think rubber tubing is the answer here, it's the degree to which you must bend your thump which is causing your pain. However maybe the rubber will help in that the thumb will have more grip in its straighter position?
By all means, do what you're doing and let the thumb hang over the stick. Keep thumb and all other fingers very relaxed with some degree of bend and loosely hold (not grip) the bow.
Use arm weight for volume. I doubt if you'll have any difficulty.
There is an Alsation bow available with a higher frog, accommodating both French and German holds.
If you check out Carbow; Jean Grunberger makes these, but I don't think this is the way to go at this stage.
 
Just as with the German bow (which I play), there are all sorts of variations to the French bow hold: thumb along the side, holding the bow on the stick beyond the frog, thumb on the bottom of the frog etc etc; I'd suggest calling a local symphony or university bassist in Dayton and paying for an hour lesson and making adjustments. I would also suggest shifting to the lighter Arcus bows.
 
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If you want the real answer, it’s in-person lessons. Something isn’t right if it causes that much pain. You need experienced eyes on your hand to see where the issue is. Probably something to do with gripping too tight. But that’s a wild guess.
I don’t know specifically why you shouldn’t keep playing with your current grip, but this instrument has hundreds of years of technique and pedagogy. If it were possible to achieve the highest level of playing with such a grip, someone likely would’ve taken it there and many usually follow, which is a long way to say, it would be much more popular. I would suspect it has to do with agility and efficiency. But I don’t know. There’s different hands and different styles. Joseph Conyers is notable for an interesting bow grip.
 
Seconding lessons, trying the tubing, German bow, in that order. I am a huge fan of Arcus which is a much lighter bow than most, but it's not for everyone, and buying a new bow seems to be an unattractive option for you at this time. I've tried the tubing and didn't like it, but getting the distribution of work through the fingers and loosening the death grip were what I had to do make the hold work in my case. I made the switch from German to French with a teacher, and I can't imagine how screwed up I would be if I had tried to learn a French hold without a teacher.
 
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I watched all of these several times over before I made this post. Conyer’s makes it the most clear as does Pierce. I don’t have pain with my current hold under the ferrule, the pain and tension come as I move my thumb into position under the stick. I will look into a lesson with a teacher when I can get the time. I was just trying to understand why the thumb has to go under the stick. I will keep trying. As with all things DB it seems it is constant focus and learning/trying, rinsing and repeating. Thank you all for the responses.
 
To your point, the thumb at the traditional place versus under the frog:
Easier to control how much hair meets the string.
More awareness of the elasticity and vibrations in the stick.
At advanced levels, more options for how to articulate the beginning of a note.
More flexible hand.
Think of signing your name with a pencil versus a hamburger.
 
To your point, the thumb at the traditional place versus under the frog:
Easier to control how much hair meets the string.
More awareness of the elasticity and vibrations in the stick.
At advanced levels, more options for how to articulate the beginning of a note.
More flexible hand.
Think of signing your name with a pencil versus a hamburger.
Thanks for that image!
I’m going to keep at it slowly. Stubborn, I am. Going to just play long open strings for awhile and set aside a few projects that still need bass under them until I get this. This bow can’t be smarter than me.
 
Thanks for that image!
I’m going to keep at it slowly. Stubborn, I am. Going to just play long open strings for awhile and set aside a few projects that still need bass under them until I get this. This bow can’t be smarter than me.
One thing my college professor had me do was go in the practice room, set a timer for an hour, close my eyes,
pick an open string and bow it. You take everything else out of the equation and just focus on that bow, it becomes meditative and you will leave that room a much better player.
 
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One thing my college professor had me do was go in the practice room, set a timer for an hour, close my eyes,
pick an open string and bow it. You take everything else out of the equation and just focus on that bow, it becomes meditative and you will leave that room a much better player.
Hoping my ADHD doesn’t get in the way of that….
 
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Actually... the bow IS smarter than you - or any of us - are: listen to its balance point, weight, tip, full hair on the string or just the edge. Many people say the bow becomes an extension of the arm, but it is really the other way around: the arm is an extension of the bow!
 
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Actually... the bow IS smarter than you - or any of us - are: listen to its balance point, weight, tip, full hair on the string or just the edge. Many people say the bow becomes an extension of the arm, but it is really the other way around: the arm is an extension of the bow!
Ok plan B. I really thought I had it there for a moment:meh:. I will start listening to the bow. Life is getting shorter, why not?