Double Bass French Bow Hold Questions - Balance and Thumb

[sean_on_bass]

Been working on my french bow hold while in quarantine and am still trying to work through the dreaded thumb strain with this hold. Due to this i am thinking more about the function of the thumb with relation to keeping bow balance as it seems my thumb strain is coming from using the thumb to keeping the bow from nose diving.

-First question is as to whether i should be using the thumb for this function? Or should the other fingers and the string itself be keeping the bow balanced?

-Could this just mean the weight balance of my particular bow is not optimal?

-Is it acceptable to move the hand farther up the bow if it feels more balanced that way? Or put another way, do different bows require different hand positioning to achieve a balance?

Curious to thoughts, don't have a teacher to consult in person at the moment.

 

[Keith Rawlings]

Great questions - I am curious as to the answers as well being new to the bow.

 

[Sean Riddle]

Thomas Martin's video about French bow hold was pretty helpful for me in helping me better teach French bow to my students who use it. I can't offer specific tips since I'm a German bow player, but hope this can help!

 

[sean_on_bass]

Thomas Martin's video about French bow hold was pretty helpful for me in helping me better teach French bow to my students who use it. I can't offer specific tips since I'm a German bow player, but hope this can help!

Thank you sir, i need to watch that a few more times.

 

[BarfanyShart]

Your thumb defintely does some work keeping the bow tip up, pushing aganst the fulcrum of your index finger. Your pinky does all the work of moving the bow on the other axis to change strings. Three things that might help:

1. Only the very tip of your thumb, right under the thumbnail touches the frog. You can press a little hunk of rosin onto the right spot on the frog to help your thumb stick in place. It hurts like hell until you kill all the nerve at the tip of your thumb, but it's nexessary. If you hold the bow with the pad or side of your thumb, then your thumb can't maintain the most efficient shape, and it will overstrain almost immediately.

2. The thumb joint should maintain a slightly bent shape, so that the thumb itself can stay relaxed and act as a shock absorber for the weight of the bow. The hard work of applyong pressure to keep the bow tip up is done with the big, fat muscle in your hand at the base of the thumb. It's good to feel the burn in that muscle, because that means its getting stronger, but feeling muscle pain anywhere else in your hand, wrist, or arm would be a bad thing.

3. Every time you change bow direction from up to down at the frog, you actually relax everything for a moment and allow the tip to dive right before the down bow. This periodic relaxation is important both because it makes the bow change sound smoother and because it would be impossible to maintain the pressure on the bow without the muscle resting periodically throughout.

This is an isometric muscular exercise where you push your body against a solid object for some time, rest, and repeat. The advantage of this type of exercise is that if you do it right, then the muscle will get very strong very quickly, and you will quickly forget that it was ever hard. The disadvantage of this type of exercise is that if you don't do it with perfect form, then you will likely hurt yourself. Take it slow and learn it very methodically with attention to form, and it will become second nature in no time, promise.

 

[Henri Gross]

Nothing will substitute a good teacher, though many things may try. I would suggest trying to get in touch with some teachers who have skills in terms of teaching bow technique.

 

[PaulCannon]

Been working on my french bow hold while in quarantine and am still trying to work through the dreaded thumb strain with this hold. Due to this i am thinking more about the function of the thumb with relation to keeping bow balance as it seems my thumb strain is coming from using the thumb to keeping the bow from nose diving.

-First question is as to whether i should be using the thumb for this function? Or should the other fingers and the string itself be keeping the bow balanced?

The thumb is a kind of counter-balance, yes. But it shouldn't be particularly strained or painful. The most common cause of right thumb pain would be an unnecessary amount of squeezing, particularly if the hand shape is not optimal. Even calling it a bow "grip" is a bit deceptive, as you shouldn't be gripping anything most of the time.

-Could this just mean the weight balance of my particular bow is not optimal?

That's always possible. Tip-heavy bows can be particularly difficult to learn with, although many more experienced players may prefer them. You can try adding counter-balances to the bow, either with a rubber tube around the winding or even a small rubber cap on the screw.

-Is it acceptable to move the hand farther up the bow if it feels more balanced that way? Or put another way, do different bows require different hand positioning to achieve a balance?

It's quite normal to experiment with that, but it's certainly not required. Many players like to hold the bow closer to the balance point, especially for baroque solo music where a strong spiccato is not needed or wanted. I definitely believe in having different bow holds available, but it has less to do with the stick and more to do with the needs of the repertoire.

You can also experiment with different contact points for the thumb and other fingers. My preference is generally to put the thumb where the stick meets the frog. I also use a rubber tube and a sharp thumbnail, which keeps things a bit more stable without the need to squeeze. I certainly never needed to "kill the nerves" on the tip of the thumb -- that's a new one to me.

 

[Keith Rawlings]

Nothing will substitute a good teacher, though many things may try. I would suggest trying to get in touch with some teachers who have skills in terms of teaching bow technique.

Yes. I’m hoping that the prospect of real lessons from an in-person teacher can happen safely and soon. We are all trying to do our best at home right now.

 

[sean_on_bass]

Thanks for the tips peoples. Will try some of it and see if there is improvement. Otherwise will just stick to german bow until i can get to a teacher in person.

 

[David Potts]

My version is slightly different to the illustrations above. My thumb has a longer curve and only the end pad of my pinkie hooks over the top of the stick. My hold turns in a few degrees onto the stick so that my elbow is free to blend into the action. My thumb is the fulcrum around which the bow would rotate if if the hair was not resting on the strings. My index finger and thumb are treated as a hook that transfers the weight of my arm to the string. I imagine a line of powers starting at my shoulder and going as naturally as possible down my arm, across a fairly flat wrist and down my index finger. From side on it would look as though my arm angle is lower that the strings because I am not trying to come down on the strings from above. I am more conscious of the hook than of pressing down with my index finger which IMO would cause tension. Using a cupped hand, a long bend in my thumb and curved pinkie allows flexibility in the hold.

 

[sean_on_bass]

Went back to german, but just got the french bow bug again and took a shot at some of the advice here...and i think i finally got a comfy hold. In the process of adjusting my hold i discovered a couple other things as well. First, i was putting way more weight on the bow into the string than was really needed. Instead i experimented with just feathering the string with the bow and was surprised to see that i could still get a good sound without all that weight. Second, i had my bow hair way too tight and again, experimented with just getting it just tight enough to get a nice resonant sound and not hit the stick.

These things, combined with you all advising on what the heck to do with my thumb, seems to be a recipe for success. Thanks folks. Can't wait till the pandemic is under control and i can get in a room with a teacher on a routine basis.

 

[ILIA]

Have you seen this?