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Freq response charts vs real world experience

#21
The magazines will never crap on their own dinner plate. They have a huge revenue stream from manufacturers, so no way will they run an article that shows how poorly those cabs perform.

I'm puzzling over what would happen if a 3rd party (me) published a bunch of cab tests... I wonder if I would have a bunch of lawsuits, etc, and have to spend a boat load of money defending my right to free speech. Lawsuits have a way of effectively muzzling the dissemination of information.
 
#22
BbbyBld said:
Did you test in an anechoic chamber?

There's a lot more to a cabs performance than the frequency response.

The curve of a cabinet doesn't mean anything if the cabinet doesn't sound good and project well. People listen with their eyes too much already. I don't think trying to shop by specs is a good idea no matter how good they look on paper. I firmly believe in "try before you buy."
Click to expand...

No id idnt test in an anechoic chamber BbbyBLD. I did it outside on a calm day. I didnt correct for ambient noise or get too carried away, although I expect my results to within a db or 2. This is a half space measurement, as are Bill's.

The point I was trying to make was that it does indeed matter on paper what the specs are. You can hear with your eyes. People are yet to make the connection between what they deem a "good sound" and what that cabs freq response look like. Further, things like "punch", "boom", and "nasal sounding" can all be described by a frq response chart.

For example-
If you had a cab x and hated how boomy it was, you could look at the chart of it, and when looking for a new cab, you could look for a cab with less of a midbass hump around 120hz.

As for projection, I think that its often misunderstood and confused with dispersion, but Ill let Bill clear that up. I design roads, not speaker systems.........
 
#25
Alexander Eddy said:
No id idnt test in an anechoic chamber BbbyBLD. I did it outside on a calm day. I didnt correct for ambient noise or get too carried away, although I expect my results to within a db or 2. This is a half space measurement, as are Bill's.

The point I was trying to make was that it does indeed matter on paper what the specs are. You can hear with your eyes. People are yet to make the connection between what they deem a "good sound" and what that cabs freq response look like. Further, things like "punch", "boom", and "nasal sounding" can all be described by a frq response chart.

For example-
If you had a cab x and hated how boomy it was, you could look at the chart of it, and when looking for a new cab, you could look for a cab with less of a midbass hump around 120hz.

As for projection, I think that its often misunderstood and confused with dispersion, but Ill let Bill clear that up. I design roads, not speaker systems.........
Click to expand...

+1
And there's no real way to "try before you buy" in a store. And stores don't seem to carry many brands these days. And today's shop by internet makes it a little more inconvenient to try first.
 
#26
Rabid audiophiles have had periodicals for years that conduct a combination of objective and subjective loudspeaker tests, and yet, even today, rabid audiophiles remain divided into separate camps peopled by objectivists and subjectivists.

Loudspeakers used by bassists are among the most difficult to measure and evaluate because we each have different expectations and because of the significant differences in sound that result from the interface between speakers and the environments in which they operate.

While I would love to see objective measurement standards and test results for bass products, e.g., "Stereophile" or "TAS" for bassists, I'm not going to hold by breath because evaluation and publishing is expensive, time consuming, and always involves a degree of subjectivity.

One of the key reasons I enjoy TalkBass is because of the opportunity to share experiences, equipment reviews, etc. Great thread - thanks! :D
 
#27
bgavin said:
The magazines will never crap on their own dinner plate. They have a huge revenue stream from manufacturers, so no way will they run an article that shows how poorly those cabs perform.

I'm puzzling over what would happen if a 3rd party (me) published a bunch of cab tests... I wonder if I would have a bunch of lawsuits, etc, and have to spend a boat load of money defending my right to free speech. Lawsuits have a way of effectively muzzling the dissemination of information.
Click to expand...

I am not a lawyer... but it is my understanding that offering a product for sale to the public is the same as disclosing its design to the public. If you buy a speaker, you are not restricted in how it is used. You would certainly measure its response if you wanted to control it with a LMS box.

Also, the response curve of a speaker is no more of a secret than how it sounds, given that the two are related. Recording and measurement are not fundamentally different from one another, and you are free to record yourself on your speaker and give away the recording.
 
#28
Jazzdogg said:
While I would love to see objective measurement standards and test results for bass products, e.g., "Stereophile" or "TAS" for bassists, I'm not going to hold by breath because evaluation and publishing is expensive, time consuming, and always involves a degree of subjectivity.
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I the prosound forum, they have a subwoofer shootout organised annually. Perhaps some of us could do it in different parts of the world. I'd happily host one in Sydney.

A mic that has decent performance, eg a Behringer ECM8000 is cheap and good enough for bass cabs. Software is either shareware or reasonably affordable. I have Rightmark and some others and am going to buy myself Soundeasy v14 as an Xmas pressie.

I don't think there is much real issue of litigation providing the test methodology is reasonable and published.
 
#29
I think that if all manufacturers had to publish real specs we would see how very limiting the designs that we use are to the sound. They are designed to cram as many cones into as small an area as possible and the claims I see are not even attainable with the materials used.

This is true even with the gear I use which is truly stellar stuff. There is no way that my 410 is 103db SPL @ 1w 1m over the entire frequency response. But at least the manufacturer does not state 28hz - 18khz like the big huge competitor. I guess if you take apples or oranges this stuff will matter, but really I'm on the camp with the guys who say that you dial in your sound no matter what the gear. I've seen it over and over again with no matter what you play through.

Case in point.

Bass player A uses my rig, and says that it was amazing. He boosts the lows up most of the way, the highs all the way, yanks the mids out and runs the pre-shape filter up a bit. He sounds like himself. He likes it. Typically, this player uses a hybrid head through an 810 cab.

Bass player B comes up. She plays hard and has an active EQ but usually plays through multiple tube heads and multiple 15's. She uses a flat EQ, and uses the vintage loudspeaker emulator. She sets the gains lower because of the active bass, and the fact that she has active means that the EQ knobs on the head are redundant.She loves it, sounds like herself, regardless of the fact that the clip light was on the whole time, it sounds like her.

I come up. I run my typical flat eq with a nudge of lows and love the way it sounds.

Now, Bass player A will hate my settings as well as B's settings. B will also hate A's settings, but love mine. I cant stand A's settings, B's settings sound to quiet for me. The whole point of this is that the cab is a cab that would only do 60hz - 3khz, yet it sounds much like what we all play through.

I think the gear matters less than we all think, and it all comes down to just playing music. Buy what gets you enough to be comfortable on stage and go with it, stop worrying about Cabinet A's specs, and just play.


This is a big reason i don't post much anymore. I'm too busy playing
 
#30
Ya know - the playing fields is level... just assume they're all cheats & liars and make up your own mind. Asking some company to disclose why it's monkey dust works better than the other guys is just un-American!

There's this funny cycle that happens, the mfgr wants exposure for his product he advertises, he sets up a well placed pro - then of course the glowing Mag review comes out, the product makes it's way through the food chain to GC. Then we get to hear the stuff and go wow, that's a snore...zxzxzxzxzzz, the pro moves on to the next endorser in time for the next Namm and it all happens again -

What's funny about this is that all of us read the reviews and think - man if it does all that it's gotta be cool as heck! but we all know it doesn't and it won't and we give the mag no credance whatsoever -

Quick show of hands - How many of us believe what they read in BP ? (not many is my guess, if you do I got this nifty bridge I can make ya a deal on ...)

...But the mfgr has to know we don't believe it... so what I find odd is that they keep playing the game and employing the guys at BP - I mean I'm glad they have journalism jobs and all but I suspect they don't all rent tuxes the night the Pulitzer prize is handed out if ya know what I mean...

Fact is that there is a pethora of great sounding gear available today - it's simply a fantastic time to be a bassist from an amplification standpoint. I've been able to sound like 'me' through quite a few rigs. I like it. Outstanding in fact! In fact - assuming you stay away from the bottom of the barrel - it's hard to put a bad sounding rig together!

Far as I'm concerned, use the spec sheet for what it's worth - light kindling with it ...
 
#31
bgavin said:
I'm puzzling over what would happen if a 3rd party (me) published a bunch of cab tests... I wonder if I would have a bunch of lawsuits, etc, and have to spend a boat load of money defending my right to free speech. Lawsuits have a way of effectively muzzling the dissemination of information.
Click to expand...
Bose sued when Consumer Reports posted unflattering SPL charts of Bose speakers. Bose lost.:hyper:
 
#33
Chuck Rainey wanderers around toting his PJB Briefcase in one issue of BP and in the next it's Genz Benz (I think). Does anybody really care if Justin M J (no offence Justin, just using ya as an example is all) uses Ampeg? Or Joe Pro uses something else? BP is full of adverts of X using Y's strings and the like. Do these manufacturers really think that we all will say "well if it's good enough for <insert favourite astists name here> it's good enough for me"! I use Carvin guitars and power amps and Acme B2 cabinets. I don't use them because the company has given me the equipment but because I like what the stuff does for me! I used my hard earned money to pay for it! Will I ever be influenced by a particular artist using equipment that has been given to him/her? Like hell I will, and anyone who does needs his/her bumps feeling.

I WILL admit that I use Elixr strings. They had the confidence to send me a complimentary set when I asked for one and I now use them exclusively. I wonder how many others string makers would have that courage! Carvin give you a 10 day in home trial. Don't like? send back and your money is returned (less shipping). How about SWR, Ampeg, Eden, Mesa, any of them?? Thought not! You are expected to spend five/ten minutes or so in a store and buy and if you don't like what it does for you on a gig - tough!

There I go ranting again!!!!!

Paul
 
#34
billfitzmaurice said:
Bose sued when Consumer Reports posted unflattering SPL charts of Bose speakers. Bose lost.
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Yeah, but how much did it cost Consumer Reports to defend themselves?

Even if they recovered costs (very doubtful), they had to pony up mega-cash to buy their share of justice. I can't afford justice, so I have to avoid situations where I would have to buy some.

The last time I did the lawyer thing was suing the seller of a house we bought. They disclosed nothing, and after 2.5 years, we won our farthing. The court ordered us to pay our own costs. We would have been better off staying out of court and buying beer with the money we wasted.
 
#37
A9X said:
I the prosound forum, they have a subwoofer shootout organised annually. Perhaps some of us could do it in different parts of the world. I'd happily host one in Sydney.

A mic that has decent performance, eg a Behringer ECM8000 is cheap and good enough for bass cabs. Software is either shareware or reasonably affordable. I have Rightmark and some others and am going to buy myself Soundeasy v14 as an Xmas pressie.

I don't think there is much real issue of litigation providing the test methodology is reasonable and published.
Click to expand...

Since I think this is a great topic, I'll offer a few questions to see how close we can come to reaching a preliminary agreement as to what should be measured, and how the measuring and reporting should be conducted.

How and where should microphones be positioned?

Should more than one set of microphone positions be used? If so, should they be reported separately or averaged?

How and where should speakers be positioned?

In an effort to establish a basis for comparison, should an effort be made to measure and disclose the listening/testing environment separate and apart from the speakers themselves?

What kinds of signals, signal paths, and signal generating equipment shoud be used?

At how many different SPLs should measurements be taken?

Which frequency range(s) should be measured?

Which frequencies should be measured?

What kinds of deviations from "flat" should be considered remarkable?

Which measurements should be used to ascertain sensitivity?

Worth doing? Yes. Challenging? Certainly?
 
#38
As I've said in basically the same thread with a different datestamp a number of times before, the bass player could just edumacate on audio so as not to be such an easy target for BS, because the companies are habitual abusers of specs and will not easily adopt AES standards for testing, nor would they wish to publish that which would demonstrate how lame they've been alll these years.

The companies see they've got a a lot of general ignorance in the set of potential buyers, they tend to take advantage. And they may be generally ignorant themselves (it doesn't take much knowledge to build the average bass cab). They know many people hear with their eyes than their ears. They know most have no basis for separating 40 Hz from 80 or 120 Hz, or 30 Hz from 60 and 90 Hz. They know that they can convince people who want to believe, and that once money has been spent that many of those people will want to believe all the more.

Those who buy from specs get what they deserve. Which is to say, the educated will be able to see though tripe, and the others won't. It's an advantage to understand things, it can be fun too, and can be a great aid for solving problems. But a lot of people want to belive in voodoo while still reading spurilous specs and they are just great targets for marketing.

As for the title, I don't get the VERSUS thing. Real world experience dictates that the more you know, the more you are forearmed and forewarned. Comparatively, understanding of specs and how they work has not hurt people involved in sound reinforcement and studios, and those markets supply a lot more data and have some established standards.
 
#39
Jazzdogg said:
Since I think this is a great topic, I'll offer a few questions to see how close we can come to reaching a preliminary agreement as to what should be measured, and how the measuring and reporting should be conducted....
Click to expand...

I would like to see polar charts, at several mid range and frequencies, both on the horizontal and vertical planes. It should help to point out differences of point sources, line arrays, and matrix (4x4, 8x10) configurations. i.e. you can't hear yourself because you're standing in a mid-range cancellation pattern from the cabinets. Same for some members of the audience.
 

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