Fretless Players: Does Switching to a Multiscale Bass affect your Intonation?

[BassicJazzy]

A regular fretless always has an exact lateral move to the 4th on the next string up or 5th on the next string down so I can pretty much always use the same fingerings regardless of the register I'm playing in (of course the distance of other intervals shifts, but that is easy to get accustomed to), on a multiscale that point is always different dependent on where you are on the neck (sometimes it will be in front of your current position, sometimes behind) requiring different fingerings in many cases. As @Wasnex mentioned, being able to play quick and complicated lines on a fretless requires knowing where to put your fingers before you play the notes, you can't really depend on being able to slide into notes- and on a multiscale that would shift significantly depending on where you are on the fingerboard (sometimes a 7th will be where a 6th would be on a standard scale, sometimes it'll nearly be a full fret up relative to the standard scale). I don't doubt that I could get fluent playing a multiscale fretless, but I think it would be a huge time investment!

I think even worse would be making large shifts, playing angular lines. I would have trouble because each string would have a different shift length, I prefer unlined board, and I don't like having to look at side dots all the time.

Does a multi scale fretless even come in unlined? I don't think I've ever seen one.

 

[logdrum]

In fact, to make my thread question complete: if I were 25 and not 63, I would consider to switch completely to multi scale basses,

Lee Sklar was older when he switched to Dingwall. Even though I played other types/voices of saxophones (soprano, alto and tenor), I started playing one that requires more breath in 2022 - baritone sax and I did well - I play . I think as you age you can rely on your experience to be efficient with learning new skills

 

[N4860]

A regular fretless always has an exact lateral move to the 4th on the next string up or 5th on the next string down so I can pretty much always use the same fingerings regardless of the register I'm playing in (of course the distance of other intervals shifts, but that is easy to get accustomed to), on a multiscale that point is always different dependent on where you are on the neck (sometimes it will be in front of your current position, sometimes behind) requiring different fingerings in many cases. As @Wasnex mentioned, being able to play quick and complicated lines on a fretless requires knowing where to put your fingers before you play the notes, you can't really depend on being able to slide into notes- and on a multiscale that would shift significantly depending on where you are on the fingerboard (sometimes a 7th will be where a 6th would be on a standard scale, sometimes it'll nearly be a full fret up relative to the standard scale). I don't doubt that I could get fluent playing a multiscale fretless, but I think it would be a huge time investment!

I understand how a multiscale works. Yes, youre right that the shifts between intervals is going to change depending on position on the neck. But its the same on a multiscale fretless vs a fretted multiscale (assuming same scale) compared to the relation of a regular fretted and fretless bass. I did make the assumption that the bass player is playing their fretted bass with the notes fretted just before the fret though which is how I normally play which translates well for me to fretless.

 

[sunbeast]

I understand how a multiscale works. Yes, youre right that the shifts between intervals is going to change depending on position on the neck. But its the same on a multiscale fretless vs a fretted multiscale (assuming same scale) compared to the relation of a regular fretted and fretless bass. I did make the assumption that the bass player is playing their fretted bass with the notes fretted just before the fret though which is how I normally play which translates well for me to fretless.

I guess I misunderstood this "I don't see why adjusting to a fretless multi-scale would be any different to adjusting to a regular fretless"- you were saying moving from a multi scale fretted bass to a multi scale fretless shouldn't be harder than moving from a standard scale fretted bass to a standard scale fretless? I still disagree but the statement makes more sense from that context than at face-value. If I were just playing in one register of an instrument or only playing relatively simple lines with lots of vibrato then yeah I could easily memorize those fingerings and rock a fretless MS, but playing lots of notes fluidly across the whole neck of a multi-scale at speed while nailing the precise note positions would be an entirely different story. I highly suspect you are using the frets as training wheels on a multi-scale more than you think you are- there are simply too many different fingering transitions for the same intervals across the neck to truly fluidly memorize them IMO, but I would love to be proven wrong! For me the glaring lack of fretless multi-scale instruments and players (even among insanely fluent fretted multi-scale players) is telling that there just isn't much of a market for them- if people wanted them then any Dingwall artist could get one without issue and enough artists do it then regular customers start asking for them too and they become a normal thing. And if there isn't a market given how popular multi scales have become then there is probably a great reason for it

 

[logdrum]

I think even worse would be making large shifts, playing angular lines. I would have trouble because each string would have a different shift length, I prefer unlined board, and I don't like having to look at side dots all the time.

Does a multi scale fretless even come in unlined? I don't think I've ever seen one.

When I played one that I friend got ( when I visited him and I probably spent 20 minutes on it), I think the correct approach on multi-scale is practicing your intervals across strings. It will be very important to have a neutral wrist position ( there is an Adam Nealy video where talks about this ) But there is a lot of unnecessary stretch say for octaves and fifths and minor thirds. The strain comes in too soon specially on lower frets and your micro adjust will have to vary from string to string and you also have to account the angle. Not an issue with the Frtetted versions. And I really do not see any benefit from a tone point of view. Because the strings are longer on the lower strings, I got less of a growl ( and this could be what people want ).

The mere physicality of it excludes many people from playing a MS Fretless great specially if it is 37 B string ( that includes me -- meaning being able to play what I can now). And my upper fret chords were also not so great and scales, + melodic lines was a lot of work and I can't play fast lines. I need more time with it for sure - a month but I do not really know what I am getting because an awesome low B really isn't

 

[N4860]

I guess I misunderstood this "I don't see why adjusting to a fretless multi-scale would be any different to adjusting to a regular fretless"- you were saying moving from a multi scale fretted bass to a multi scale fretless shouldn't be harder than moving from a standard scale fretted bass to a standard scale fretless? I still disagree but the statement makes more sense from that context than at face-value. If I were just playing in one register of an instrument or only playing relatively simple lines with lots of vibrato then yeah I could easily memorize those fingerings and rock a fretless MS, but playing lots of notes fluidly across the whole neck of a multi-scale at speed while nailing the precise note positions would be an entirely different story. I highly suspect you are using the frets as training wheels on a multi-scale more than you think you are- there are simply too many different fingering transitions for the same intervals across the neck to truly fluidly memorize them IMO, but I would love to be proven wrong! For me the glaring lack of fretless multi-scale instruments and players (even among insanely fluent fretted multi-scale players) is telling that there just isn't much of a market for them- if people wanted them then any Dingwall artist could get one without issue and enough artists do it then regular customers start asking for them too and they become a normal thing. And if there isn't a market given how popular multi scales have become then there is probably a great reason for it

yeah I guess I should have clarified that in the first post and I might have been mixing up the 2 experiences a bit (regular fretted to multiscale fretless vs fretted ms to fretless ms; I think may have been influenced by the post previous to mine of the 2 dingwalls). My fretless is a standard scale fretless but unlined except for some very nice flamed maple figuring which I got pretty used to playing after about a week or 2 so I feel like I'd personally have a similar experience with a multiscale if I ever bought one and had to learn it.

 

[Element Zero]

I don't run into issues going between my fretted Dingwall and fretless StingRay. I regularly go back and forth between the 2 here at home. It's maybe more drastic feeling going from the Dingwall to the standard fretless, but after 10 seconds I'm fine. Granted, I look at my left hand on my Dingwall maybe 10% of the time, and look at my left hand probably 90% of the time on the fretless.

 

[getBAK]

I go back and forth between my Fretless MTD and Fretted Dingwall easily. The MTD is a 35" scale, so the transition feels a little more natural than on my 34" Yamaha.
That said, not really a problem. I don't try to play on top of the frets on the Dingwall. My fingers hit where they hit.

 

[rockear]

I understand how a multiscale works. Yes, youre right that the shifts between intervals is going to change depending on position on the neck. But its the same on a multiscale fretless vs a fretted multiscale (assuming same scale) compared to the relation of a regular fretted and fretless bass. I did make the assumption that the bass player is playing their fretted bass with the notes fretted just before the fret though which is how I normally play which translates well for me to fretless.

I'm not speaking from experience but I think I agree with you. If you have good finger-right-behind-the-fret technique on multiscale, and are reasonably competent on fretless, I imagine the transition won't be too bad.

Similarly to how you don't have to concentrate on the fact that a minor third at the 12th fret is smaller than it is at the nut, I don't think you'll have to concentrate about a minor third being smaller on the G string than the E. Your brain and fingers will just do it.

I don't think it will happen immediately, but a few weeks of solid practice ought to do it. Or maybe I'm wildly underestimating the difficulty.

As far as the question in the OP, I am doing the vast majority of my practice on 37" MS lately, and I haven't found my fretless playing on 34" to suffer from it at all.

 

[Wasnex]

I don't see why adjusting to a fretless multi-scale would be any different to adjusting to a regular fretless. As long as you can hear yourself you should be able to learn to play in tune the same way you would on a regular fretless bass.

Good fretless player don't have to adjust. They nail notes without having to rely on vibrato or sliding into tune.

I think playing in tune on a multi-scale fretless involves a lot more variables than a regular fretless. I think at the very least, these extra variables will make playing in tune a lot more difficult.

On a properly set up regular fretless, you should be able to bar across the strings and have every note be in tune. If you play intervals that are parallel across the fretboard, the spacing remains consistent in each position. For example:, 1 to 2, 1 to 5, 1 to 8, 1 to 11 or G to A, G to D, G to G, G to C. If it's not clear, I mean 2, 5, 8, and 11 are parallel intervals across a regular bass neck and they are all spaced equally from 1. In contrast the intervals are not equally spaced from 1 on a multi-scale.

The size of certain intervals on a regular fretless change size as you move up and down the neck. But they vary in simple and intuitive way that your brain maps into a script that allows you to play without thinking about intonation. In contrast on a multi-scale the intervals across strings do not simply get proportionally smaller in a consistent and predicable way as you play up the neck. Instead some intervals shrink while others get bigger. Pretty sure the human brain is not particularly good at dealing with this sort of chaos.

 

[Daniel B5]

For me the glaring lack of fretless multi-scale instruments and players (even among insanely fluent fretted multi-scale players) is telling that there just isn't much of a market for them- if people wanted them then any Dingwall artist could get one without issue and enough artists do it then regular customers start asking for them too and they become a normal thing. And if there isn't a market given how popular multi scales have become then there is probably a great reason for it

Per Sheldon Dingwall, a few years ago they were selling about six fretless basses per year. Not a big market, but there is a market.

 

[logdrum]

Good fretless player don't have to adjust. They nail notes without having to rely on vibrato or sliding into tune.

I think playing in tune on a multi-scale fretless involves a lot more variables than a regular fretless. I think at the very least, these extra variables will make playing in tune a lot more difficult.

On a properly set up regular fretless, you should be able to bar across the strings and have every note be in tune. If you play intervals that are parallel across the fretboard, the spacing remains consistent in each position. For example:, 1 to 2, 1 to 5, 1 to 8, 1 to 11 or G to A, G to D, G to G, G to C. If it's not clear, I mean 2, 5, 8, and 11 are parallel intervals across a regular bass neck and they are all spaced equally from 1. In contrast the intervals are not equally spaced from 1 on a multi-scale.

The size of certain intervals on a regular fretless change size as you move up and down the neck. But they vary in simple and intuitive way that your brain maps into a script that allows you to play without thinking about intonation. In contrast on a multi-scale the intervals across strings do not simply get proportionally smaller in a consistent and predicable way as you play up the neck. Instead some intervals shrink while others get bigger. Pretty sure the human brain is not particularly good at dealing with this sort of chaos.

And I have direct experience but very short with this on a full 37 on the B string Dingwalll fretless and it was hard and it is not something I will own. You need to have long fingers on the low registers or you could also constantly shift to get the intonation right if you were me and I am not bad. I have a 36 inch scale 6 string fretted bass which I really use for my jazz fusion band meaning a lot of soloing. Honestly I play mostly from 5th fret up and if I have to lower position, because I do not have to be on top of the fret, I do okay. A fretted Dingwall is also something I could manage because I could be between the frets. The moment I go to the fretless I have to compensate bi doing a lot of wrist pivots and that can get really old and maybe even hurtful very fast.


On the Bass the World channel, they demoed a unlined fretless bass by Meta and the guy had huge hands and it was only 34 on the B -- so what's the point of even making it multi scale. By the time I get on the C it is already a short scale bass which I probably won't like. And his intonation was not so great and most of the demo was around the 7th fret and up, the area where the "frets" are starting to be horizontal. The guy was Dingwall specialist. beyond 12th fret the intonation also suffered and he did not play any triple stops and double stops were choice perfect 5ths. The guy was good don't get me wrong but it was not the best fretless playing I have seen. he also had to play the bass very angled and he had to really concentrate and look at his fingers. It can get bad sounding t if he had to read a lead sheet or a chord sheet or sing or look at his band mates

Like Wasnex says -- prove us wrong to those that have fretless Dingwall (37 on the B) - Let us know how much more effort to have good intonation, is it affecting your speed and dexterity, how is the cross stringing, triple and double stops and chords and can you get your eyes of of it and do you have to alter playing style, positions etc. And what is your hand size and finger length. Is it more tiring?

Please note, I think I am a capable fretless bass guitar and double player having played fretless for 39 years and was my main bass until 2002 when I played fretted 50/50, Upright for about 32 years. My scale lengths on fretless bass guitar are 34 and 35 and on upright bass 38.5 and 42. I do not see myself buying a fretless Dingwall MS but definitely open to a fretted,.

 

[A Bass And Its Boy]

This Meta has a 35" E:


Although the first time I ever saw an example of this was right when this guy got his fretless, line-free, side-dot-free multiscale baritone guitar:

 

[sunbeast]

Per Sheldon Dingwall, a few years ago they were selling about six fretless basses per year. Not a big market, but there is a market.

Of course there are some, but I'm not sure thats really a market per-se- probably a bit more than as many people who have bought into torsion-neck instruments (those crazy twisted necks) or the convertible fretted/fretless necks someone was making awhile back (the frets literally pull into the neck with a switch- cool idea in theory, but required a dead flat neck radius and high action when in fretless mode) and that's because Dingwall's are nice instruments and some folks collect them. I suspect it's as much for the curiosity and novelty for existing Dingwall players/collectors with significant expendable income as anything- if they were to release a limited version fretless Combustion I have no doubt they'd sell out, but how many people would actually utilize them vs just collecting them or trying to flip them for a profit? I suspect not many.
If you search for videos of "fretless Dingwall" the vast majority are from the company themselves, and nearly every video you see of them the players have their eyes dead fixed on the fingerboard while playing relatively simple lines sliding into notes. Without a single visible notable player unlocking one of these instruments I suspect they will always remain a quirky "couple a year" thing- that he even offers them as an option still with such low order numbers I guess is testament to Dingwall's dedication to its customers and trying to push the envelope.

 

[11-11]

strange timing to see this thread
I am just about to order a custom multiscale fretless, I exclusively play multiscale guitar and bass wise, just tried a fretless [not a multiscale and its got a 34" scale which feels weird to me even with my tiny hands lol]
first time I ever played a multiscale was a guitar [my first instrument] and was pleasantly surprised when,1] it took less than a second to adjust and
2] it instantly felt more natural and actually easier to play. I am hoping with some effort and hours spent playing will make the switch to fretless multiscale
a doable endevour, im not really a technical player though.
still debating on scale lengths, i think I am needing at least 36 on the low a [im tuning the 5th to a instead of b] and at the most 34 on the highest string.....
fingers crossed [probably literally trying to learn a multiscale fretless 5 lol] I will survive the mission and be able to play it at least as badly as I normally play lol.
glad to see others have been doing the fretless multiscale thing thats encouraging at least lol.

 

[BassicJazzy]

This Meta has a 35" E:


Although the first time I ever saw an example of this was right when this guy got his fretless, line-free, side-dot-free multiscale baritone guitar:

Ah, there it is! Saw that video awhile ago, remember looking up how much those things cost, which pretty much killed any further interest. Unlined multi scales fretless but with ghost lines, barely visible.

Well, I'm sufficiently challenged by conventional unlined fretless, and I don't want ghost lines, but I have to admit that one is nice.

 

[ole Jason]

I think the impact of the ergonomic idiosyncrasies I noticed with the fretted muli-scale basses will be multiplied considerably by fretless. I do think a multi-scale fretless could be used for relatively simple music, but my expectation is to be able to walk bass lines up, down, and across the finger board. It's hard enough playing a tune like Giant Steps at tempo with a regular bass. Can't imagine attempting this on a multi-scale fretless. In all honesty, I think even a multi-scale fretted bass would make this sort of work challenging.

IME the hand has to be calibrated to handle intonation automatically. This is true to some extent even when adjusting intonation on the fly by ear. My experience suggests your intonation still needs to be reasonably close and it needs to be consistent across the strings.

IMHO with a multi-scale bass, the calibration of your hand will be constantly changing with every string crossing. In addition, the relationship of the pitch center between strings varies continuously as you move up and down the neck. I don't think this will be reasonable for us mere mortals. There may be a few "super talented" who can pull it off. Congrats if that's you .

I hear where you're coming from but I think you might be surprised how quickly you'd adjust to it. It's definitely more complex than having all the strings at the same string length but it's still just a matter of developing muscle memory and hearing notes/intervals. I'm not a multiscale guy but it would be fun to mess around on a fretless version.

 

[Wasnex]

I hear where you're coming from but I think you might be surprised how quickly you'd adjust to it. It's definitely more complex than having all the strings at the same string length but it's still just a matter of developing muscle memory and hearing notes/intervals. I'm not a multiscale guy but it would be fun to mess around on a fretless version.

You are certainly free to pay the price of admission and find out .

Not gonna happen for me. I could never get comfortable on a regular fretless BG so I got a nice EUB which I was immediately comfortable on. The scale of the EUB is 42", which is longer than the 34" to 37" scale of common Dingwalls. The low B on on the EUB is incredible.

I have done extensive demoes on fretted Dingwalls and concluded multi-scale is not for me. Fabulous basses with definite benefits. I am absolutely certain I could play a fretted multi-scale and sound great. But there are also costs imposed by multi-scale that I am not willing to pay. These costs slightly degrade my fluency on a fretted bass. The longer I played a fretted multi-scale, the more I realized this.

I think the degradation to MY technique on a fretless multi-scale would be so severe that I could not reasonably play with others. I would certainly demo one or accept one as gift. No way I would order one custom and pay > $4500. To me the instrument would be an interesting, but ultimately frustrating novelty.

 

[11-11]

You are certainly free to pay the price of admission and find out .

this is precisely what im about to do
as soon as i decide on a body shape and what scale lengths i want to go with but i think the later Ive answered now
34"-36.25" 5 string
no markings [ok maybe a small dot each side or something lol]
itl be fun at least

 

[BassicJazzy]

You are certainly free to pay the price of admission and find out .

Not gonna happen for me. I could never get comfortable on a regular fretless BG so I got a nice EUB which I was immediately comfortable on. The scale of the EUB is 42", which is longer than the 34" to 37" scale of common Dingwalls. The low B on on the EUB is incredible.

I have done extensive demoes on fretted Dingwalls and concluded multi-scale is not for me. Fabulous basses with definite benefits. I am absolutely certain I could play a fretted multi-scale and sound great. But there are also costs imposed by multi-scale that I am not willing to pay. These costs slightly degrade my fluency on a fretted bass. The longer I played a fretted multi-scale, the more I realized this.

I think the degradation to MY technique on a fretless multi-scale would be so severe that I could not reasonably play with others. I would certainly demo one or accept one as gift. No way I would order one custom and pay > $4500. To me the instrument would be an interesting, but ultimately frustrating novelty.

Well, there goes my plan to ask you to buy me one, right out the window.