Double Bass "Full-Size" Bass?

[MEKer]

OK------discussing the DB with a music major at OSU, I was told ALL basses that are considered full-size are actually 3/4 size.....there IS no "FULL-SIZE" full size DB. The biggest is 3/4. If so, why call it 3/4 and NOT full size? Begs the question then: 3/4 size of what?

Pardon the ignorance but I just don't get it in the size thing. I am an electric bassist but go to many classical concerts here in Columbus and enjoy watching all the DB musicians and cellists.

 

[ThumpPlunkJunk]

Standard size is 3/4.

The largest size is 4/4.

 

[MEKer]

Is neck length the clue? Is a 3/4 a certain number of inches shorter? Or is the body and neck together a certain number bigger?

 

[chris1125]

Generally speaking, a half size bass has around a 38 inch string length, 3/4 has 40-41 1/2, 7/8s are 41 1/2 to maybe 42 1/2 and anything larger then that would be a full size bass, maybe up to 43 1/2 and anything past that would be very difficult to play. Some of the old basses of Italy and America especially were VERY large to the point where modern players couldn't use them and they were "cut down". People stay awY from the term full size because then the next person will come up and say "but this is several inches larger then that" so on and so on, it's just easier to call it a 7/8 or very large instrument.

 

[Stick_Player]

Is neck length the clue? Is a 3/4 a certain number of inches shorter? Or is the body and neck together a certain number bigger?

Generally, the "fractional" assignment is determined by the open string length - Bridge-to-Nut.

My son's first double bass was a 1/10 size. The string length being 28".

He now plays a 1/4 size, approximately 35" string length. That's longer than a full-size electric bass.

My upright bass is a 3/4 size, 41.75" string length.

A 4/4 size is 42.125" or more.

None of these lengths are exact or consistent. Body size, shoulder shape, depth of body.

 

[Simandl Fan]

remember, basses were designed by luthiers, not mathematicians. The difference between a full-sized violin and a 3/4 sized violin is only one inch of body length.

 

[drurb]

Generally, the "fractional" assignment is determined by the open string length - Bridge-to-Nut.

My son's first double bass was a 1/10 size. The string length being 28".

He now plays a 1/4 size, approximately 35" string length. That's longer than a full-size electric bass.

My upright bass is a 3/4 size, 41.75" string length.

A 4/4 size is 42.125" or more.

None of these lengths are exact or consistent. Body size, shoulder shape, depth of body.

Notice that 28" is not 1/10 of 44" Just more of the inconsistency.

MEKer-- this topic has been discussed here over and over. Try out the search function. You'll find all kinds of information on this topic in many threads.

For example, look at this very recent thread.

I wish folks would use the search function before posting.

 

[Steve Swan]

Medern german basses tend to use different names for sizes. What used to be called a 7/8 is now commonly called a 4/4. What used to be a large 7/8 or a 4/4 is now commonly called a 5/4, believe it or not. It makes celsius vs. fahrenheit or meters vs. feet seem tame by comparison.

 

[drurb]

Medern german basses tend to use different names for sizes. What used to be called a 7/8 is now commonly called a 4/4. What used to be a large 7/8 or a 4/4 is now commonly called a 5/4, believe it or not. It makes celsius vs. fahrenheit or meters vs. feet seem tame by comparison.

Indeed... and those sizes refer to body sizes, not string length-- yes?

 

[Steve Swan]

String lengths on comtemporary basses have become a real wild card and matter less and less in trying to assign a size. The trend has been to go to the low side of 41-42" or even under, no matter what the dimensions and shape of the bass.

 

[drurb]

String lengths on comtemporary basses have become a real wild card and matter less and less in trying to assign a size. The trend has been to go to the low side of 41-42" or even under, no matter what the dimensions and shape of the bass.

That's interesting because there are those who would argue that the only meaningful and/or reliable indicator of "size" is string length. Body sizes, shapes, and string lengths have always varied substantially and been loosely connected, despite charts such as this one that suggest that they co-vary.

To the extent the trend is as you say, then I'd say that makes double bass "sizes" even less meaningful than they were-- and that's pretty meaningless. If someone says he has a 7/8 bass, I submit that that tells one almost nothing meaningful.

IMO, what is meaningful and reliable is the string-length and body dimensions. Even then, you gotta go play it to determine if it "fits" you.

 

[Steve Swan]

String length have changed drastcially in the last 70 years. The changes from gut to metal and developement of modern playing styles have both pointed to shorter and shorter striung lengths. Prior to WWII, most 3/4 instruments had string lengths of 42-43". You would have to search high and low to find a prewar doublebass with a string length of less than 42". I play gut strings myself and find that it's difficult for most instruments to respond to a string length of less than 42". After WWII, especially from the 1960s on (steel strings), a lot of european 3/4 instruments went to small 3/4 shapes, lower neck angles, and string lengths closer to 41" and even shorter. The general current trends for orchestral instruments are to shorter string lengths and larger patterns. Solo instruments are trending to much small shapes, especially in the upper bouts. As much as we like to put things in neat little file folders, sizes and string lengths are all over the map these days. For me, the best indicators of 3/4 vs. 7/8 sizing are top length and lower bout width. These days the distinctions are less clear cut and the size labels less meaningful. What really matters to the player are how the instrument feels, sounds, and responds.

 

[drurb]

Steve--

Agreed, but...

..For me, the best indicators of 3/4 vs. 7/8 sizing are top length and lower bout width. These days the distinctions are less clear cut and the size labels less meaningful.

IMO, there's just no point in using the measures to determine "sizing." Once you make the measures, you have the information you need. There's little point, IMO, to saying that those measures indicate a "3/4" or a "7/8" or a "German 4/4." It's going from precise measures to a squishy one.

I suggest that we all agree, as players, to abandon sizing altogether and promote string-length and body measures. Furthermore, I suggest we protest all manufacturers, luthiers, and dealers who quote "sizes."

 

[Steve Swan]

I think that we agree that the most commonly listed sizes of 5/8, 3/4, and 7/8 are no more than very rough general guides. As with trying to force fit many kinds of music into "classical", "world", or "folk" categories, it's a very general starting place in trying to sort out what works best for you. There is nothing like actually playing a lot of different basses of different sizes and shapes to get a sense of what these various measurements mean. A 5"5" person is more likely to feel comfortable on a 3/4 bass and a 6'5" is more likely to feel just fine on a 7/8 bass, but it doesn't always work out that way.

 

[pand]

Peter Chandler wrote in his excellent book "So ... you want to make a Double Bass":

"- I have not yet heard of any definitive means of determining whether a bass is 3/4, 7/8 or full size.
I go by the size of bag that is needed!."

"- Most players prefer a 3/4 size. 7/8 is not uncommon. Full size is a rarity."

 

[Steve Swan]

It's amazing to me how many goofy concepts about basses persist in general folklore. Twenty years ago I worked in a store where one of the two owners insisted (and still does) that only 4/4 size basses qualify as "doublebasses".

Here's an example illustrating the potential pitfalls of using string length as the primary determinant of size. Kay and King Moretone plywood basses were designed in the late 1930s and made in the USA. The top lengths are nearly identical and the body outline of the King Moretone is only slightly less wide than the Kay. The string length of the Kay is 41 1/2" and the string length of the King Moretone is 43 1/2". Both are well within 3/4 size. I've never heard anyone try to force fit a King Moretone into a 7/8 classification.

If you see a bass listed only as a 3/4 or 7/8, it's only a conversation starter. Find out what the top length, widths of upper, middle, and lower bouts, and string length are. It will tell you much more about how the bass will feel and likely sound.

 

[drurb]

Here's an example illustrating the potential pitfalls of using string length as the primary determinant of size. Kay and King Moretone plywood basses were designed in the late 1930s and made in the USA. The top lengths are nearly identical and the body outline of the King Moretone is only slightly less wide than the Kay. The string length of the Kay is 41 1/2" and the string length of the King Moretone is 43 1/2". Both are well within 3/4 size. I've never heard anyone try to force fit a King Moretone into a 7/8 classification.

What this shows is that string-length alone won't do it. The reason you never heard of anyone trying to force-fit a King into a 3/4 size is because most people judge "size" by body size! So, it's not surprising that, given a 43" string-length, people don't call it a 7/8 or 4/4 or whatever. Body-size alone won't do it either. I submit that, overall, if you were going to pick one measure as an indicator of "size," then string-length would be the most reliable (but not reliable enough). Basses with long string lengths usually have big bodies. Basses with big bodies may not have large string-lengths. Still, with string-length, as you point point out, you can go wrong. That's because, fundamentally, this "size thing" is an unreliable metric.

If you see a bass listed only as a 3/4 or 7/8, it's only a conversation starter. Find out what the top length, widths of upper, middle, and lower bouts, and string length are. It will tell you much more about how the bass will feel and likely sound.

How many different ways are there to say this? It's been said over and over in this thread and elsewhere. It's the various measures that tell the story. Agreed.