(Gasp) changing speakers in GK mb210

[4stringabuser]

Im sure ill be on fire by the time anyone reads this lol!
Have first series mb210 combo with blown speaker(s). Thought it might be an opportunity to modify the speaker compliment to better suit my purpose. Yes, i know the actual drivers used are available from gk @$104 each, but unfortunately they do not offer any technical info about the drivers. I am less worried about the lightweight/neo aspect, and am more interested in squeezing every ounce of volume from this combo without using extension cab. Stock, it has 2 16 ohm speakers pulling 350w at 8 ohms from the amp, which is good for 500 watts at 4 ohms.... ideally, i would find a pair of 8 ohm drivers that would work in the cab and be able to handle the full 500 watt output. Considered the emi basslites, which are probably pretty similar in a lot of ways to the paragons. Sensitivity and low frequency response in the smallish cab is much of the reason i arrived there.... am i nuts? This will be the second time replacing both drivers (first go around, got the exact replacements). Dont want to throw good money after bad, but i have already gotten hundreds of gigs out of this thing since i got it. It just not QUITE enough a lot of times, but one-trip load-in is very very appealing (and lost with an extension cab)

 

[BogeyBass]

alot paragons out there.

depends, are they cheaper stamp steels neos with relatively small magnets
then yes a lower cost Eminence stamp steel neo with small magnet be about the same.

not really about the watts, its sensitivity
10" drivers tend to be on the low side

Jumping up to a Cast Frame Kappalite with higher sensitivity, more xmax and larger neo magnet
more a guarantee. to actually do 350 watts. and again not power issue. its how much SPL you actually get before fartout

350 watts" sounds safe for a cheap stamp steel neo. thermally. they probably fart out way before you think
probably 220 to 260 watts. with a significant driver upgrade you add about another 100 watts of power handling
be a actual more realistic 320 to 360 watts. and yes of course be " 600" watts thermal, actually higher.
who cares. more interested in SPL before distortion

 

[4stringabuser]

Understood, esp considering driver efficiency and power handling before the fart-out... these are the ones that came in it, and which ive replaced the originals with---- even still, got around 3 years and countless gigs out of the replacements... there are 8 ohm versions available, but they wont handle the amp.
Invalid Link Removed

I would just go with the beefy ceramic eminences, but the frequency response in the bottom octave makes me think i wont be gaining anything but weight...
"Eminence Kappa Pro-10A 10" Cast Frame Driver" from www.parts-express.com!

I wish i still had my winisd program---- at least it would give an idea. I have definitely experienced "that" thing before with a driver change (highly efficient midrange with a tight tight low end... i.e. lacking) and i know thats not what i am looking for. Not trying to reinvent the wheel here.

 

[4stringabuser]

I should add that i have a "big" rig for bugger shows, but this combo gets the call for perhaps 50% of my bass gigs for the reasons mentioned above.

 

[Downunderwonder]

If it was that easy there would be a sticky list of X super driver to Y cab.

The tradeoffs go something like this
Power handling up > sensitivity down
Power handling up > upper frequency response down.

What you need is a super 12 that can do something useful with 500w.

 

[agedhorse]

There is only so much you can expect out of any 210, perhaps this isn't the best choice for your needs.

 

[Turnaround]

Power handling is only one part of the equation. You also need to consider the other operating parameters of the speakers and how they will pair with the cabinet. You could end up with a power handling monster that sounds like wet carboard.

 

[BogeyBass]

There is only so much you can expect out of any 210, perhaps this isn't the best choice for your needs.

But i thought your kappalites did " 600" watts

 

[BogeyBass]

Understood, esp considering driver efficiency and power handling before the fart-out... these are the ones that came in it, and which ive replaced the originals with---- even still, got around 3 years and countless gigs out of the replacements... there are 8 ohm versions available, but they wont handle the amp.
Invalid Link Removed

I would just go with the beefy ceramic eminences, but the frequency response in the bottom octave makes me think i wont be gaining anything but weight...
"Eminence Kappa Pro-10A 10" Cast Frame Driver" from www.parts-express.com!

I wish i still had my winisd program---- at least it would give an idea. I have definitely experienced "that" thing before with a driver change (highly efficient midrange with a tight tight low end... i.e. lacking) and i know thats not what i am looking for. Not trying to reinvent the wheel here.

large cast frame Kappa Pro often gets overlooked actually, big 3" coil actual good sensitivity for a 10"

Sounds similar to the Eden drivers.

Then again what eminence did for Eden was pretty amazing design.

they essentially got the efficiency and power handling and still using a cast frame design
But they significantly lowered the weight and cost of the Kappa

using a 2" coil cast frame and much lighter magnet. but still got a high power high sensitivity 96dB driver

those Eden drivers being public now and can be bought as the Legend CA10

so funny people went on and on saying that Eden were liars and the efficiency of their 4x10s was impossible.

and there you go people, nope they really made a 96 dB 10" and likewise before they did.
any manufacture could of used kappas before that anyways. all to dumb and cheap to see it

and even now Eden is big liars. but they moved on and found neos that nobody can see, right before their eyes LOL

 

[Omega Monkey]

I'm not sure there are any easily available affordable 10s that will honestly handle 250w each. If you're going to be on your 3rd set of speakers, 100% you are asking too much from a small inexpensive combo. So you have to get better at deciding when to use the combo vs the "big rig", OR you have to upsize the "combo" and/or replace with a head and cab.

Now, if money was no object and form factor was the biggest issue, you could try to find a NEO 212 cab that was empty, and load it with 2 of the 8 ohm 12s, and the crossover from the 412 (because it will match the impedance). I suppose you could also try calling GK and trying to order a cab like that in the first place. Maybe they would make one for you for an additional charge. Then, get something like the MB500, which should be the same or similar to your combo head. This will give you the same basic sound, but a good bit more volume, for fairly modest size and weight increase.

Another option instead of brand new drivers (especially if you still have the old drivers), is reconing. Although this seems somewhat less common these days than 10 or 20+ years ago when it was happening all the time. But if you insist on clobbering the combo so frequently, committing to having 2 pairs of drivers at all times and swapping blown ones out for reconed ones may be the best bet if you won't just roll with an appropriate amount of gear to a gig. Take the blown drivers and send them off to be reconed so they'll be ready for next time.

What's your "big" rig? Is it significantly bigger than the combo with matching extension cab would be? You clearly are asking too much of a $400 low end combo that is not really designed to be a volume or low end monster. You might also think about changing your EQ, compression (if any), and effects settings to get more audibility out of the combo, without changing anything (once it has fresh replacement drivers in it). You can also set it on a stand or chair, stand further in front of it, etc... or get your bandmates to turn down to more modest levels and EQ slot their instruments properly.

And I will just finish by saying the whole "one trip" thing is blown way out of proportion. But I never got that he-man macho BS thing of oh I need to do everything myself and in as few trips as possible. After bootcamp I don't really feel like I have anything left to prove to anybody in that regard. And I also live in a pretty dense metro area where parking is usually a pain in the ass, so the norm is to pull up in front of the venue with hazards on, take as many trips as necessary to unload, with help for heavy stuff where applicable (basically anything 70 pounds or up or bigger than a 1x12 guitar combo). Then you go park and walk back. Unless you can basically do all your gigs with a 30 pound 1x10 or 12 combo, bass in gig bag, clip on tuner, cable, and strap, you're basically going to have to make compromises to get to that "one trip" level. If you have some sort of physical limitation, that's fair, but otherwise, how many trips the gear takes to get inside should be more of a tertiary consideration, especially after having sufficient capabilities to not get damaged.

So to me, enough volume (more than enough, really, because I don't ever really want to be buying replacement speakers, especially for avoidable damage) is priority number one. Then tone. THEN weight/size/number of pieces. I'm lucky not to have to worry about size since I have a minivan, so theoretically anything less than about 2 SVTs (maybe 3 even) is do-able. But even then, if you play bass and play gigs that require a certain amount of stage volume, you basically need to have a car that can accommodate that. Which even a hatchback (fit, golf, etc...) will work for that unless you're in a doom band probably. But if you drive a C3 vette and play metal gigs, you're gonna have a bad time. Also, feel free to get a little cart/dolly and then you CAN make everything in one trip, as long as their are no stairs or curbs to deal with.

Anyway, that's my rant. I suggest a decent 2x12 and mid powered head (or just your "big rig" head) and then you will be set for most reasonable gigs with not a lot of size, weight, or # of pieces. Or render unto the combo that which is the combo's (ie coffee shop acoustic stuff, jazz gigs, SMALL rock gigs in low capacity rooms, etc...) and render unto the big rig that which is the big rigs (anything where the combo would be questionable).

 

[agedhorse]

But i thought your kappalites did " 600" watts

Don't know where you got this idea from, but I have never used the KappaLite 10's.

My comment was specifically directed at those players who have unrealistic expectations from ANY 210 cabinet. This is more common that you might think (and yes, I am making quite the assumption here).

Players driving the snot out of a 210, especially a compact 210, trying to get it to perform like a larger 215 or 410 will impact the long term reliability (like the OP has experienced), even with some of the marketing claims made by those who "promise big".

 

[BogeyBass]

Yeah no kidding.

which is exactly what ive said in other threads 2x10 is a 2x10.

you just seemed to throw a big fit when i said exactly what you just said now lol.
good to know things change daily it seems

and then seemed to make some point that your amazing speakers handle "600" watts
guess that be the answer then to a 2x10 that works.

it was just a misunderstanding though, i was making a blanket statement and you thought i was actually talking about your speakers

 

[agedhorse]

Yeah no kidding.

which is exactly what ive said in other threads 2x10 is a 2x10.

you just seemed to throw a big fit when i said exactly what you just said now lol.
good to know things change daily it seems

and then seemed to make some point that your amazing speakers handle "600" watts
guess that be the answer then to a 2x10 that works.

it was just a misunderstanding though, i was making a blanket statement and you thought i was actually talking about your speakers

I have no idea what you are talking about, and frankly I doubt many here can make sense out of most of your posts.

Your comment about the KappaLites was certainly directed to me (at least for those who comprehend the English language), yet I have never used the KappaLite 10's in any product. How was this a blanket statement when using the pronoun YOUR?

 

[BogeyBass]

its just funny.

i made a statement exactly like yours in another thread.


and you made some huge example of trying to discredit me.

When all i was saying was exactly what you said, and trying to tell the OP in that thread the limits of a 2x10

so comical really

mmmkay ill play dumb too.
obviously im doing you favor. seems like i left plenty of opportunity for you to come in and tell use about your 600 watt 2x10 lol

 

[InhumanResource]

Im sure ill be on fire by the time anyone reads this lol!
Have first series mb210 combo with blown speaker(s). Thought it might be an opportunity to modify the speaker compliment to better suit my purpose. Yes, i know the actual drivers used are available from gk @$104 each, but unfortunately they do not offer any technical info about the drivers. I am less worried about the lightweight/neo aspect, and am more interested in squeezing every ounce of volume from this combo without using extension cab. Stock, it has 2 16 ohm speakers pulling 350w at 8 ohms from the amp, which is good for 500 watts at 4 ohms.... ideally, i would find a pair of 8 ohm drivers that would work in the cab and be able to handle the full 500 watt output. Considered the emi basslites, which are probably pretty similar in a lot of ways to the paragons. Sensitivity and low frequency response in the smallish cab is much of the reason i arrived there.... am i nuts? This will be the second time replacing both drivers (first go around, got the exact replacements). Dont want to throw good money after bad, but i have already gotten hundreds of gigs out of this thing since i got it. It just not QUITE enough a lot of times, but one-trip load-in is very very appealing (and lost with an extension cab)

Get a used MB212.

 

[farace]

Get a used MB212.

What I was going to suggest. Only a few pounds more, full 500 watts. Love mine.

 

[And I]

am i nuts?

Maybe, maybe not. But your idea is bad and you shouldn't do it, if that's what you were asking... You need to suck it up and get an extension cab, probably an HPF, and possibly to turn the bass eq knob down.

 

[4stringabuser]

About that fire.... haha, thanks for the read guys.

Several questions, so i'll try and address them from memory, since the phone web version of tb is not the most user friendly.

-i do have the matching 1x15 ext cab (which btw is a pretty great cab in its own), but carrying it defeats the idea of loading in in one shot from where i am parked. In truth, it is a pretty formidable rig with both cabs.

-mb212 would be great--- a good buddy has one, and i dont disagree it would get it done.... but, i already own an almost valueless (with blown speakers) mb210 that ive had since around 2013. Also, the speakers arent blown out completely, but there is noise, so they are not usable. If i could find an mb212 for the price of the 2 drivers, id guess id be a fool to pass on it.

-my big rig is ampeg... i have 2 410he cabs as well as a 115e loaded with an emi 3015LF, which was a HUGE upgrade over stock, and one of the motivators for considering this with the mb210 in the first place. Large volume and LF increase, and lighter weight to boot. Currently have a pf800 and a separates rig powered by a crown xti2000. The pf gets the call most of the time. Ive owned tens of amps over the years from all of the major mfrs.

-the problem woth an amp that is ALMOST enough that you tend to push it to get it to be enough. Yes, i 100% realize this can be asking a lot of a 210 combo, or really any amp in this scenario.

-i am not really a gambler, so it looks like the $225ish for originals is probably the best answer again.

-i have been playing over 30 years, 2/3 of that professionally, and half of it as my only employ. I am certainly no kind of star nor will i ever be, but in no way am i inexperienced... for the record. I have certainly hit my 10,000 hours

 

[Ostie]

Im sure ill be on fire by the time anyone reads this lol!
Have first series mb210 combo with blown speaker(s). Thought it might be an opportunity to modify the speaker compliment to better suit my purpose. Yes, i know the actual drivers used are available from gk @$104 each, but unfortunately they do not offer any technical info about the drivers. I am less worried about the lightweight/neo aspect, and am more interested in squeezing every ounce of volume from this combo without using extension cab. Stock, it has 2 16 ohm speakers pulling 350w at 8 ohms from the amp, which is good for 500 watts at 4 ohms.... ideally, i would find a pair of 8 ohm drivers that would work in the cab and be able to handle the full 500 watt output. Considered the emi basslites, which are probably pretty similar in a lot of ways to the paragons. Sensitivity and low frequency response in the smallish cab is much of the reason i arrived there.... am i nuts? This will be the second time replacing both drivers (first go around, got the exact replacements). Dont want to throw good money after bad, but i have already gotten hundreds of gigs out of this thing since i got it. It just not QUITE enough a lot of times, but one-trip load-in is very very appealing (and lost with an extension cab)

2nd set of blown drivers? Perhaps your screen name should be GKampabuser

 

[bound'n'blocked]

Nothing for me to add to this here except:

When I replaced the components in my older extension cab...the Eminence speakers were to big. It seems like the original ones are a smaller diameter for the little ring underneath. I had to do a lot of work to get the new ones in there.

BnB