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GB Shuttle 6.0 Tube Swap - done it/do it?

as the person that has final sign off on product, I can tell you that price has nothing to do with tube choice- I know Andy covered that in his post too.

Reliability is HUGE. Then, tone over a large sampling. I can roll tubes all day long between brands and find variances in tone. Also, I can roll them all day long with only one brand and find variances.

As of recently, I now manage all distribution for Groove Tubes in North America. If you want to get an education in tubes......man. :eek:

Hmm .... does this mean that Genz will be using Groove Tubes in their line now? Not a complaint but a question? I've always had good luck with any tube I bought from Groove Tubes. Not always the cheapest but always reliable for me at least.
 
Will using mismatch tube with a lower gain factor like the 12AT7, or 12AY7 affect the functions of the amp?

Generally it should be ok, but there must be enough gain along the entire portion of the curve to function properly otherwise you may end up with a little unintended distortion. It's also possible that with really low gain, the tube will not function properly. The circuit was designed specifically with ethe 12AX7 in mind.
 
I made a tube shootout page on my website if you're interested in hearing the clips I made to compare them. That was made a long time ago but should make you hear the differences.

http://www.martinletendre.com/preamp_tubes.html

Let me know what you think.

Nice Work! After listening with my headphones, I like the JJECC803S best... So Doug's Tubes has a couple headed my way...
 
Reading this thread got me interested in seeing if I'd notice much improvement in my already good sounding Shuttle 6.0. I tried a few different tubes and wound up going with the apparent favorite, a JJ ECC83S.

I tried some I had on hand:
stock Ruby 12AX7 - the baseline for comparison
JAN 5751 - not enough gain and breaks up too early
GT 12AX7 - ok, but nothing notable
GT 7025 - same

I bought these from Doug's Tubes:
Sovtek 12AX7WA - meh... sounded pretty much like the stock Ruby
Tung-sol 12AX7 reissue - pretty good, nice creamy overdrive, sounded really good playing solo, my favorite until I tried the ECC83S
JJ ECC83S - tightened up and strengthened the low end, added some nice mid punchiness, much better clarity in a mix.

I didn't really think there was that much of an improvement until I tried the ECC83S. That one really made an appreciable difference. Granted, these are just my impressions and the differences would probably be lost on most people in a live mix situation, but hey, we at least need to sound good to ourselves, right?
 
A month or two ago I opened up my Shuttle and tried a few different tubes I had laying around. I think I ended up leaving an Electro-Harmonix in there. I definitely heard a difference. The tube that stayed had a nice crisp top end. If you have a few preamp tubes laying around it's definitely worth spending an hour or so swapping them around.

KO
 
Hmm .... does this mean that Genz will be using Groove Tubes in their line now? Not a complaint but a question? I've always had good luck with any tube I bought from Groove Tubes. Not always the cheapest but always reliable for me at least.


I don't have plans at this time to change the tube to a GT. The current tube has been very reliable for us.
 
OK, I just picked up a Shuttle and was reading about swapping the tube. Honestly, I was a little disappointed with the lack of tube "sag" I was hearing and thought I would give it a try. I took my head over to my friends house who is into electronics and happens to have a bunch of tubes ( new and old high end stuff ) that I figured would be perfect to try. Well, after swapping a few tubes that, based on their reputation should have made quite a difference, we were not hearing a change. My buddy checked out the circuit and came up with some reasons that he thought would explain why nothing changed by swapping tubes. I dont know enough about electronics but felt that you guys might be able to confirm his findings.

1) There are only 14 volts across the plates of the tube. According to my friend, something like 300 volts is required to make it act as a tube should in the circuit if it were going to have any effect.

2) The grid is wired to the cathode. The plates are out of the circuit and have no effect on the sound. There is no gain generated by the tube.


If any of you know how to verify this please let me know. I really want to like this head but am starting to feel like I bought something that is more hype ( look it has a tube!!! ) than actual engineering.
 
OK, I just picked up a Shuttle and was reading about swapping the tube. Honestly, I was a little disappointed with the lack of tube "sag" I was hearing and thought I would give it a try. I took my head over to my friends house who is into electronics and happens to have a bunch of tubes ( new and old high end stuff ) that I figured would be perfect to try. Well, after swapping a few tubes that, based on their reputation should have made quite a difference, we were not hearing a change. My buddy checked out the circuit and came up with some reasons that he thought would explain why nothing changed by swapping tubes. I dont know enough about electronics but felt that you guys might be able to confirm his findings.

1) There are only 14 volts across the plates of the tube. According to my friend, something like 300 volts is required to make it act as a tube should in the circuit if it were going to have any effect.

2) The grid is wired to the cathode. The plates are out of the circuit and have no effect on the sound. There is no gain generated by the tube.


If any of you know how to verify this please let me know. I really want to like this head but am starting to feel like I bought something that is more hype ( look it has a tube!!! ) than actual engineering.

hmmm...first off, your friend is as wrong as can be. However, if you bought this head and you like sag, you bought the wrong head. We work VERY hard to make our amps as dynamic and "instantaneous" as possible.

FWIW, "sag" is an output section effect anyway...not the input section.
 
Thanks for the reply. I would like to tell my friend he is wrong. What part of his evaluation is incorrect? How many volts do you have across the plates? Can the tube generate any gain? Please be a specific as possible. I am sure he will stand by his findings.
 
Thanks for the reply. I would like to tell my friend he is wrong. What part of his evaluation is incorrect? How many volts do you have across the plates? Can the tube generate any gain? Please be a specific as possible. I am sure he will stand by his findings.

Yes..the tube generates gain. I've already referred this thread to our senior engineer...agedhorse. He can put down enough detail here to make anybody's head spin.
 
1) There are only 14 volts across the plates of the tube. According to my friend, something like 300 volts is required to make it act as a tube should in the circuit if it were going to have any effect.

This is both an incorrect measurement/value and an incorrect understanding of tube theory.

Firstly, the MAXIMUM from cathode to anode when the tube is in CUTOFF is ~300 volts. In this condition the tube will not pass signal).

Secondly, the load line and transfer function curve spans from zero volts to 300 volts with varying grid bias and plate currents. Linear operation can occur at any place along the valid curve. How linearity is managed depends on the circuit design, local feedback, and what the designer intends the circuit to do in both the linear as well as the non-linear range. Under "ideal" conditions for maximum VOLTAGE gain, the plate is generally biased at around 150 volts in the highest (safe) voltage circuit. Without delving into propriatary design information, the theory of relativity applies here as well... what the plate and bias are relative to is critical to understanding any circuit.

I designed the circuit to be relatively insensitive to the possibly wide variations in tube parameters and aging. Once we developed the sound/feel that we desired, we wanted this to be consistent over a reasonably wide range of tube parameters that occur during the manufacturing and grading process. Critical parameters can vary by as much as 100%, so why should some customers receive amps that are "worse" that other customers when we have some control over this in the design process?

2) The grid is wired to the cathode. The plates are out of the circuit and have no effect on the sound. There is no gain generated by the tube.

This is also incorrect. I suggest that your friend remove the tube and confirm his incorrect assumption. Perhaps he may have an incorrect pinout of the 12AX7 or is looking at the pinout upside down. There is a voltage to current to voltage function going on that he is missing. This is critical to the feel and quickness at low frequencies.

The tube is one component of the overall sound and performance of the ENTIRE amplifier. The circuit is designed specifically to be responsive for bass players needs, to exhibit low microphonics under the high vibration environment of bass amplification. Additionally, unlike a guitar amp, the overdrive characteristics necessary for bass applications requires a little different (though classical) approach to the design. We built up many different tube circuits and this is the one that was most preferred for sound and feel.

If any of you know how to verify this please let me know. I really want to like this head but am starting to feel like I bought something that is more hype ( look it has a tube!!! ) than actual engineering.

Either you like the amp or you don't. I personally assure you that plenty of actual engineering and play testing went into the design decisions for all signal paths. I am also an electrical engineer with over 25 years designing products for the pro audio, guitar and bass amplification industries. I also have plenty of pro audio touring/support experience. The rest of the design team has just as much experience in their respective areas.
 
i had to skip right to the end. blackplate tubes are the most coveted. they sound the best because they were constructed better with higher quality materials. jj tubes? thats like saying u wanted a rolls royce and only bought a jaguar. yes, jj are good. but u neeeed vintage ones to tell you how much better they are that the jj/or original tubes. you may not notice a difference. you may notice a slight difference yet still never go back to modern tubes. try some rca blackplates, 60's shield logo mullard, amperex. good thing is even if you dont like them or notice alot of difference, you can still sell them the next day for what you paid for them. gold lion made a 7-800$ tube i see on ebay at least once a month. good rca nos 12ax7/12au7 blackplates go around 25-50 a pair on fleabay. its not alot when you compare how much we spend on strings:hmm: johnny a. staind
 
the sovtek lps is known to be strident and sterile sounding in the hi-fi world. i always thought it was funny, i see multi thousand dollar amps with 15$ 6l6 ruby power tubes in them. remember- preamp tubes affect tone much more than power amp tubes, power amp tubes multiply the signal by 100's of times, the preamp tubes, thousands of times. therefore they contribute more sonically. johnny a staind
 

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