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Double Bass Getting a steady classical gig - hard or not

Landing Classical Gig - Hard or not?


  • Total voters
    59
kontrabass said:
That is an interesting page, bierbass. Nonetheless, I think that most orchestras from "big" cities pay what the government deems a livable wage (don't get me started on the government's standards, though. I think that many orchestral musicians can attest to this..kpo and his louisville debacle come to mind). The problem is attaining this "livable" wage. When 50 or 100 guys and gals continuously audition on the same circuit (minus one for the sometimes-winner of each audition), it makes a obtaining a job seem that much harder.

As long as you love what you are doing, there is some way to pay the bills...at least I hope.

Well I didn't really cite the web-site for the info on salaries. I thought the numbers of music school grads vs. number of jobs and available jobs might be of use and allow kid_squanto draw some conclusion based on numbers. I also realise this essay only covers ICSOM and not ROPA orchestras, but we can assume the issue would be similar if not more complicated since the salaries of ROPA orchestras are considerably less. If you also read some of the other articles on that site, I think it affirms what many of us intuitively know already.
 
The proms just recently came up and on that website given by bierbass it shows the decreasing budget.

Let me bring everything together real quick. The proms take place in Royal Albert Hall (one, if not the, largest concert halls in the world? where almost every concert is sold out and many times where they are broadcasted on screens in other venues to meet the demand of people trying to get into the proms.

America is obviously doing something wrong if orchestras like the NY Phil, and Philly Orch can't fill up a 1500-2000 person concert hall (Royal Albert Hall is 7,000). Maybe Americans don't appreciate history the way Europeans do, or maybe the thing, at least I believe, that there is no music education in many public schools anymore. For instance, half the kids in orchestra in my school don't know that Beethoven was fully deaf when he composed his 7th, 8th, and 9th symphonies, some of the greatest works ever written (opinion of course).

I think its ignorance that European history is taught in every public school but Music and Art are left out of Euro. These two components are so important in history, yet they aren't included. So I believe it really boils down to education, not new music.

I hate talking to my friend, who wants to be an engineer, about roller coasters, because I'm not educated about them and I just don't understand what he is saying. People dislike classical music because they don't know what they are listening to. If we don't create a more educated society or a society more appreciative towards history, the world of the major symphony orchestra is not going to last much longer.

That's just my little rant about the music scene right now.

I'm interested in hearing comments back - even if you yell at me and call me stupid so write back, even if I have to create a seperate thread.

-Nick
 
It would be really nice if high schools offered "western art appreciation" classes. Something that explaned how to listen to classical music with a critical ear, but not entirely focused on it. I've always been interested in other fine arts, such as ballet and theater, but don't have as much understanding of it as I would for music.

Education is definitely a silver bullet. You can't ever expect the public school system to actually start caring about the classical music industry. They're too busy dealing with No Child Left Behind and getting kids to understand basic math and English concepts. It's up to people like us to get the ball rolling. Symphonies should be doing far more in the way of outreach and free children's concerts.
 
sibass89 said:
that there is no music education in many public schools anymore. . . .

I think its ignorance that European history is taught in every public school but Music and Art are left out of Euro. These two components are so important in history, yet they aren't included. So I believe it really boils down to education, not new music.
. . .
I hate talking to my friend, who wants to be an engineer, about roller coasters, because I'm not educated about them and I just don't understand what he is saying. People dislike classical music because they don't know what they are listening to. If we don't create a more educated society or a society more appreciative towards history, the world of the major symphony orchestra is not going to last much longer.


-Nick

Yes, yes, and yes. 100% Right.

As a U.S. public school music teacher myself, I can say that you are now getting to the crux of the matter, Nick. Students (citizens) of our country are not, generally speaking, prepared to appreciate new orchestral music or the accepted classics. They see it as a form which doesn't include them . . . they don't have the background on composers, historical context, or the "meaning" of the music, many of the instruments and playing styles are foreign to them, and they therefore don't have any "natural" appreciation for it.

I wouldn't be too quick to blame this on the school system or on any current educational fads or legislation, but tend to see this as a societal trend. OUtside of a very select few (including many of us, as musicians) our society has very little use for arts in general. People don't have the time, resources, interest, or ATTENTION SPAN (notice caps) to appreciate music in the orchestral tradition, or in the jazz tradition, for that matter.

One reason I see for this is the long-standing attitude (often perceived as an "exclusive" club) of orchestral players, composers, conductors . . . the vast majority of America has no exposure to, or appreciation for orchestral music in part because orchestras have done very little to include the majority of Americans in the tradition. This starts with very basic, individual interactions - who's ever seen or heard a symphony player belittle a potential listener for their lack of exposure and knowledge? WHo's ever themselves belittled someone for not knowing what the heck a string bass is, or confusing it with a cello? How could you possibly expect children to take the time and effort necessary to developing an appreciation for this art form when they have PLENTY of cheap, readily available forms of entertainment, which they and their families already know how to enjoy, and in which they are automatically included.

When my young students hear classical music, after being prepared for it, they are surprised to find that they like some of it. I like to think that I share my enthusiasm. A few may go on in high school to be self-motivated to be involved in orchestral music. A few.

ONe short anecdote, and I'll stop . . . While wrapping up an introduction to keyboarding unit with some 6th graders last week, some students were sharing what they could play (Yeah, lots of "Heart and Soul", songs from "sister act", you get the idea . . .) The kids were nice enough to let me play, so I played a short Bach Minuet (the G minor from the Anna Magdalena book). They're nice kids, so they were appreciative. But the one comment that stuck out in my mind was:

"Oh. That sounds like rich people music."

Please excusde the length of this post. I could go on for days.
 
Well I stand by my view that the orchestra as we know it today IS a sinking ship. I mean even on the titanic the band played until the very end , am I right?

One thing we from and in north america must remember is that the symphonic tradition is from europe. not better or worse but just from there first. OK we knew that. So what else...
That being said europe has in many ways just continued on with a long line of musical tradition. Therefor the momentum is kept going. Both by the genepool and the polotics of cultural support.
Of course children know who Beethoven is if you are from Germany or for me it's all about Grieg and Ibsen here in Norland.
I remeber lots about Columbus and kit Karson when I grew up as well as the Monitor and Merimac. Didn't here much about Ives or about how the Vienna Phil is actually younger than the New York Phil.
I had to discover this myself.
Working in an orchestra today is an extremely priveledged occupation.
But remember all societies during all of history are remembered by and though the culture they produce...
So what does that say about today?
 
Definately all great comments, but I still there is one question that I still didn't see answered (granted I'm reading this on the fly). What is that difference in American Society that we don't appreciate it the way the Europeans do? Wy doesn't every American know about Copland the way the Germans Beethoven?

Noisemaker- I agree with a lot of what you said but another thing I've found is that a lot of students are peer pressured away from it. I'm graduating from high school this year, and If I'm walking listening to my iPod and someone asks me what I'm listening to, I might say Don Juan, or maybe Tchaik 4, or Mahler 3, and they look at me like I'm a foreigner, and say that "classical ****".

I know a lot about No Child Left Behind, I happened to do the Quality of Life Competition about it, and it is a lot about arts standards, but my solution is put the arts into every subject. I feel it would great that while learning about the Russian Revolution, we learn about Stravinsky, whose music was so powerful to the revolutionaries it motivated to keep fighting, or the effects Stalin had on composers like Shostakovich.

So although society is a lot of blame, part of the make up of society is education, and the education system does simply nothing when it comes to properly teaching the arts.
 
Yes, Staten INslet, The arts should certainly be much more integral to our education system as a whole. I think it needs to start at the earliest stages.

Now go and try to explain that to people who want quantifiable, short-term results (read: higher test scores). And please remember, most children are coming to school less and less ready to learn, with less support at home, less background knowledge, . . . Hey, wait, do you think this might have something to do with the lack of cultural and long-term awareness on the part of generation after generation of parents, kids being brought up on a steady diet of no intellectual or cultural content? But I digress.

G-Force, I tend to think the sinking ship analogy is very apt, but I hope you're wrong.

So, I would say: hard. It's probably going to be very hard to land a job as a classical bassist. But you should try, and prove me wrong. And maybe one of my students will buy tickets to see your orchestra perform new compositions and old compositions. And maybe they will raise their children in a culturally rich environment, and they will write even deeper music.

And maybe American Idol will go off the air.

Seacrest - OUT!​
 
sibass89 said:
What is that difference in American Society that we don't appreciate it the way the Europeans do? Wy doesn't every American know about Copland the way the Germans Beethoven?

Siba, get your hands on any book by Norman Lebrecht. He explains this in a much better way than I could.

But honestly the Copland -Beethoven analogy is a little unbalanced. He was good but not that good a composer.

Of course he is a great american composer but there are many Coplands in the world of western music but only one Beethoven..
I don't think that the american society is unapprciative but as you said americans appreciate it another way. ONe really needs to look at why people came to america in the first place, what they came to and especially what they were leaving from. Not to mention who was left behind in europe . This is where one starts to get the idea of why the music situation evolved the way it did. for example many musicians left for various reasons between ww1 and 2 to go to the states. These were some of the best musicians in europe. A real cultural brain drain. AT the same time some of these went on to form the great film orchestra of all time as well as found some of the great orchestra in the usa ( Chicago had Germans, Philly had Italians) .

Anyway NOISEMAKER. I sure hope I'm wrong about the titanic scenario too. I love my job but I must admit that what Pete g says about orchestras being museums is way too correct...

Oh BTW All of the orchestras in Norway are soon on strike.. We have a union of over 900 members and obout 300 hundre have been taken out in a strike since may 24.

I'll let ya know more as I do. The oslo Phil is due to be taken out on Friday which means our tour to asia is cancelled......
 
sibass89 said:
Let me bring everything together real quick. The proms take place in Royal Albert Hall (one, if not the, largest concert halls in the world? where almost every concert is sold out and many times where they are broadcasted on screens in other venues to meet the demand of people trying to get into the proms.

America is obviously doing something wrong if orchestras like the NY Phil, and Philly Orch can't fill up a 1500-2000 person concert hall (Royal Albert Hall is 7,000).

I need to come back on these points - what you say in your first para, is really only true of the "last Night of the Proms" - which is like a celebration of Britishness and a party - it has no new music and is of very little interest to me!! :hmm:

The rest of the 3 month season is very different - so, it is relatively easy to get tickets and the big feature of the Proms season is that you can turn up on the day and queue for cheap standing tickets, which give you the best "seats" in the house (although you have to stand - hence Prom = promenade i.e. walk about) - for just £5 !!! :eek:

So - the determined "Prommer" can get to a lot of great music very cheaply - that's how it succeeds! :)
 
Bruce Lindfield said:
I need to come back on these points - what you say in your first para, is really only true of the "last Night of the Proms" - which is like a celebration of Britishness and a party - it has no new music and is of very little interest to me!! :hmm:

I'm hearing you on this - but we do get a few of the Proms concerts televised... also there's the whole 'Classic FM' phenomenon over here - for the uninitiated it's a national independent radio station playing mostly well-known classics, film music and classical 'chart' stuff like 'Il Divo' and Andrea Bocelli. I don't go in for it myself, but it does expose a lot of people to orchestral and chamber music.
 
kpo said:
Pete G said:
Check this out:

Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, Wagner, Mahler, Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Berstein, Zappa, Adams.

Leaving out Stravinsky, Varese, Berg, Stockhausen and Glass


To me, Olivier Messaien is the true "giant" of the late 20th century - I like Bernstein, but really he's not in the same league as Messiaen - not trying to do the same things.

Messiaen's musical innovations, seriousness and the scale of his vision and "symphonic" output, make him stand alone at the end of the 20th Century!

And that's not even taking into account his organ,piano and chamber music - Quartet for the end of Time - written in a concentration camp during WWII has to be a defining statement - a historic and musical document of the time!

I would also include - Tavener, Berio, Ligeti,Arvo Part,Dutilleux and - many others - and where did we lose Scriabin? ;)

Too many to mention really!
 
Conor MacCarthy said:
Emm, what are all these lists of composers about? :confused:


Well - the debate started moving along the lines of - orchestras are dying, as there is no new-ish music available that engages audiences....?

So the repertoire becomes stale and leaves its audience behind - meaning there are less and less steady classical gigs

There - back to topic!! ;)