Giving up on a brand?

[Korladis]

I don't think I've ever "given up" on a brand so much as eventually come to consider some brands more than I do others when thinking about gear. Some brands just aren't marketed really towards my tastes, and there's nothing wrong with that. Not every product is made for me.

 

[JimmyM]

Great discussion!
For me, seeing certain players being endorsed by a company will definitely reduce my interest in that brand.
I have a similar problem seing a brand or product line being consistently promoted with for instance a "hard rock" attitude and then you realize that the only time (ever) you see this product is in the jazz/fusion scene or similar.

If you play any amp and you can't get an appropriate sound for any type of music, I ain't blaming the amp, if you know what I mean. Some people relate to certain amps better than others, but all they do is amplify what you put into them, and I've had to play enough backline-supplied amps in my day to know that it's all about the player.

As for endorsers, there isn't an amp company on earth that doesn't have endorsers unless it's extremely small, and then even they do sometimes as well. Rare is the company that'll turn down endorsers unless they ask for something that's impossible to deliver. But I don't get all the endorser dislike. Most can afford to play anything they want, and it's very rare that an endorser will play gear he or she doesn't like just because it's free or reduced price. Occasionally I've even been offered endorsements from companies whose gear is good but just doesn't hit my buttons, for example.

 

[Steve Dallman]

El murdoque, After a few years of floundering around with sub-par bass amplification (late 60's, my favorite band, the "Tongue Band" in WI got a new bass player, Rick Clark. I saw the new lineup and was blown away by his bass tone, which came from a P bass, with Rotosound roundwounds through an SVT.

I strove for that tone, and ended up with an SVT and 64 P bass with Rotosounds. That has been the foundation for the tone I still use, although I haven't had a P bass since 1983 and got rid of the SVT (which needed expensive tube replacement and other maintenance) in favor of setting up a biamped rig.

I can't say I used any faulty or poorly built equipment over the years. Being able to repair whatever I owned that malfunctioned helped. I've steered clear of equipment I have worked on at music stores that had design flaws that ensured breakdowns (like Marshall...Mode 4 comes to mind, but there were others) so my ownership did not include those amps.

As a tech, dealing with companies is a daily business. I need to obtain schematics and/or service manuals, as well as parts easily. Loud took a bad turn when they obtained Mackie and SLM products (Crate and Ampeg) and eliminated their service stations, opting for "replacement only" instead of repairs. That was a move that soured me greatly and was a real problem for dealers and customers. While "replacement only" may be reasonable to a company, for owners of that equipment, it is awful.

Fender's Frontline series of amps is such an example. The input jacks fail, and the whole amp is to be replaced? Equipment too quickly go out of warranty and then what does the owner do?

Obsolescence is too large a factor with current manufacture. I was a Line 6 repair tech. I love their stuff, but too quickly parts for discontinued products dried up. I was getting in a lot of repairs for amps like the Flextone HD heads, and no parts were to be found. Repairing complicated designs using proprietory chips and SMD construction on a component level quickly results in repairs exceeding the value of the amp. So into the landfill it goes.

Meanwhile, the old blackface and silverface Fenders just keep on getting repaired and keep running, and easily so.

I bought my 5 year old SVT head in 1975 for $300. Now that was a huge bargain even then, but it did represent 5 weeks of takehome pay from my day job (at an electronics manufacturing plant) or nearly 10 four hour gig's pay (before gas and expenses).

My PF-500 cost me $320 in late 2012. What a bargain! Sure, it's nearly a disposable amp, but what it does for what it cost is incredible. Less than a week's pay by comparison to my 70's SVT.

 

[BurningSkies]

I find the 'brand loyalty' thing sort of perplexing. I like certain items that a 'brand' or company may produce. I may be 'loyal' to that product, given that it does what I like it to, sounds right to me and doesn't fail. That doesn't mean that I think all of whatever that company makes is gold.

Fer instance...I use a Peavey power amp, but I don't want a Peavey bass amp of any that I've played...or Peavey speaker cabinets. I really love my Dingwall basses, but Sheldon also makes a bunch of 'short scale' instruments that I hear are fantastic, but not really aimed at anything I want.

 

[experimental bassist]

But I needed an amp, and I've heard Loud's customer support had improved since their early takeover of SLM, so I gave the PF-500 a try. I am thrilled with it, even though the first one died the second time I turned it on. No problems with the replacement, which Musicians Friend got to me in less than 24 hours!

I have a few SLM era crates and an ampeg right now, heck I've pretty much always had some sort of SLM gear in my stable ever since I started playing in the early '80s.

I have contacted Loud recently regarding a set of schematics and they replied and furnished the schematics in a prompt manner, no complaints but probably all I'll ever have to deal with them.

I do my own work on my amplifiers (and basses and guitars) so I can source my own components and such things.

SLM had great CS and I do miss them.

Peavey still sets the bar for me though, still able to speak to humans and always felt like they go above and beyond.

I have a similar problem seeing a brand or product line being consistently promoted with for instance a "hard rock" attitude and then you realize that the only time (ever) you see this product is in the jazz/fusion scene or similar.

Well, I don't have a problem with it, but I definitely look on with bemusement when I click a product video and there's "Mr. LA music scene" with the unbuttoned shirt and dripping with the buzzword lingo telling all us "cats" how "rocking' the product is.

I know I'm probably aging out of whatever target demographic that is supposed to appeal to, but hey it must work and work well or it wouldn't be so common.

 

[Fuzzbass]

TB has all kinds of players and some invest a lot of research, money and feelings (word?) in creating the rig that reflects their personality and makes them feel good.
The other extreme could be both the less discriminating player or the person that consider all gear to be "just a tool" that could be replaced in an instant.

I do not have alot of (but def. some!) feelings invested in my gear, but I try to see "the whole picture" when buying gear; how do they advertise, design their products, who is endorsed, etc. If it seems "right", it is easier to accept minor flaws.
Now one of my "preferred suppliers" has deviated (technically, designwise, commercially etc) so far from my view that I feel a bit uncomfortable with it. Since some of that positive feeling is gone, I nowadays have less patience with the quirks I have accepted for quite some time before.

A source for GAS as good as anyone, I guess...

There's blind loyalty: my brand, always. I think that's silly, but I'm not sure many players fall into that category. Yeah, there are some brand fanatics here on TalkBass, but if they ever got a lemon or two they might switch camps (and then post just as fanatically about the new brand).

I've been (mostly) loyal to Bergantino speaker cabinets for over a decade now. I know they'll all be well designed. I haven't loved every Bergantino cab I've owned, but I've loved most and liked the others. My loyalty has mostly been "going with what I know" in a vast ocean of possibilities, but another important factor is second-to-none customer service.

Same as you, if Bergantino ever diverted from my goals in a major way (say, if every Berg cab had a built in power amp with DSP) then I'd probably go with another brand.

 

[DiabolusInMusic]

I have given up on a brand but not because of the endorsers. I gave up on Ampeg because I had two total duds in a row. Fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice, shame on you. One of which spent 2 solid months in repair, coming in and out of repair. They were a brand I, like many, grew up always wanting, all my heroes played it. By the time I did get my Ampeg they had sold the company and moved production to Asia, along the way QC went to **** and they started releasing products with high failure rates.

I have given up on other brands due to their ethics, but there aren't any bass manufacturers using kids which is usually where I draw the line (Apple anybody?), there are some horrible foreign employers but they are all adult employees. I still wouldn't feel comfortable buying a Samick or Cort manufactured bass though.

 

[AlexanderB]

Wow, many interesting and diverse replies and all in a very "mature" attitude.

Just a bit of clarification for JimmyM. You said:

If you play any amp and you can't get an appropriate sound for any type of music, I ain't blaming the amp, if you know what I mean. Some people relate to certain amps better than others, but all they do is amplify what you put into them, and I've had to play enough backline-supplied amps in my day to know that it's all about the player.

Do you mean all amps work for everything? (I got a bit confused, honestly, but English is not my first language.)

You are basically right about the player being the important thing; however, amp voicing, available tone controls, compressors etc play a big role for some people's sound. And I believe that "gear factor" gets gradually more important the further away from the "original", four string, "holding down the bottom", clean-ish, finger style you go.

It would probably be hard to replicate the big, "elegant", mid scooped and compressed 80s SWR tone on a Peavey from the same era.

Or to boost the important mids for fretless tone if you have a Fender tone stack amp.

 

[Gaolee]

I buy what I like and it's based upon what I like only unless it's something I can't try out for myself. However, endorsers sell gear, so I totally get why most companies go after them.

Um, what is the question again?

Wanna sell me a B15 real cheap?

I play what I play based on what it sounds like, with the exception of one amp that I use for a practice amp because I already own it and it is at the practice space. That amp doesn't sound as good, but it is smaller and does OK for its purpose. If I hadn't already owned it for about 30 years, I probably wouldn't buy it, even though it is the same brand as the rest of the amps I like and play through.

 

[Altitude]

I'm very sure that posting to Talkbass has resulted in me buying more gear than I otherwise would have. A lot more. But - I really value the informed opinions of experienced players on this board. Rather than loyalty to a certain brand, I tend to be loyal to the opinions of a noted group of people here whom I trust.

The result is that I can buy gear more or less sight unseen and have a reasonable expectation that I will like it - and in all but a couple cases that has proven true.

 

[groooooove]

i like situations where you naturally feel loyal to a brand. i play clifford roi basses because nothing else can do what they do. i also play them because i've known the luthier for a few years now, visit the shop somewhat regularly, and really can't be inspired the same way with any other instrument.

in other cases, i do like to have a "go to brand." with amp heads i love markbass, and have for years now. if i needed a new head i'm not positive it would be a markbass though.

i guess it's part of the job of any company to keep you loyal - if they have proper quality standards, make good products, and respond to public demand, and personal emails, ext, people will stay with them. if the company goes a new direction, i would never feel obligated to stay with them because i used to like their philosophy and execution of what they make.

 

[MovingPitchers]

I'm loyal to Fender despite the fact their quality control on everything is inconsistent. Even in their American models.

Doesn't mean I like everything they spit out of the factories in corona and Ensenada. For example, the new dimension and cabronita series re ridiculously ugly and waste of resources. As well as the 2014 proto series precision bass.

And the mustang bass.

Only things I think are gold are jazz and precision basses and the strat.

 

[Korladis]

Wow, many interesting and diverse replies and all in a very "mature" attitude.

Just a bit of clarification for JimmyM. You said:


Do you mean all amps work for everything? (I got a bit confused, honestly, but English is not my first language.)

You are basically right about the player being the important thing; however, amp voicing, available tone controls, compressors etc play a big role for some people's sound. And I believe that "gear factor" gets gradually more important the further away from the "original", four string, "holding down the bottom", clean-ish, finger style you go.

It would probably be hard to replicate the big, "elegant", mid scooped and compressed 80s SWR tone on a Peavey from the same era.

Or to boost the important mids for fretless tone if you have a Fender tone stack amp.

He meant that if you can't get a usable sound out of just about any decent amp, the problem isn't the amp.

I have amps that I prefer, but I can make do with other amps when I don't have my ideal.

 

[AlexanderB]

Thanks!

OK, I and my band mates want a bit more than "passable" tone.
I sure can tell how much better our band sounds when our guitar player trades his all tube Marshall stack for a Fender Super Reverb. I do not think the bass is less important in a power trio, although it might take a bit longer to hear what is missing if the bass sounds "wrong".

Sure, provided backline is one thing, but my thoughts revolve around what gear we choose to buy (and not to buy.)

 

[KevInDaBassment]

Sometimes branching out and having versatility isn't bad....people do tend to take a preference to certain things that fill their needs though. Just like finding your favorite type of woman or the woman you always want to be with, you tend to take pride in your choice and often times can't fight your feelings on it either.

I find myself being that way with Ibanez very VERY frequently. No matter what other basses I'm playing, I go back to my Ibby's and go "THAT is what a bass is supposed to sound like!" The sound quality and feel on them always amazes me. If/when my music career goes to a point where endorsement deals become available, Ibanez is the first company I'm knocking on the door of, absolutely love their basses!

 

[bgavin]

Foremost, I won't tolerate an amp brand that is having reliability and/or service problems.
Behringer always comes to mind, yet their SM58 clones are superb. Go figure.
We've been playing a Behringer powered PA head for years... works every time it comes out of the box. Again, go figure.

After reliability comes playability.
In the middle 60s I had an Epiphone Casino stolen, and it was replaced by a Gibson ES335.
The Gibson was the nastiest piece of unplayable trash I had experienced. A veritable tree trunk for a neck.

My Hammond C3 and full size Leslie departed around 1972.
This was a real beast to move even for four young studs playing music.
That magnificent sound was not worth the size and weight of transporting it.
Today, I play a Suzuki XK2 Hammond, and carry it with one hand.

I have the greatest respect for Fender MIM basses.
I will never play well enough where I "outgrow" or am "better" than a MIM-P.
My $225 2000 MIM-P was wonderful to play, great neck, perfect width... but alas a 4-string. All my 4-string are gone now.

I tried a Fender RB5 and was impressed by the quality and distressed by the huge neck that was unsuitable for my small hands.
The Stingray5 17.5mm spacing makes my hands happy now.
I have one SR5HH rosewood, one Warmoth P+J fretless ebony, both have the same tri-color sunburst. Warmoth quality is exemplary.

Amp-wise, I let a mint condition SVP-Pro go, because of potential output transformer problems and lack of parts.
It sounded great, was dead quiet, etc, but the potential circuit issues bugged me enough to let it go.
I owned/still own a bunch of MX, RMX, PLX QSC amps, none ever let me down. Ever.
The MX3000a was the first amp, and first gone. At 69 pounds bare, plus rack, it got very ugly at 2am.
Recently acquired is a GK 700RB-II, strictly for G.A.S. pains.

Last, are the over priced speaker cabs. No brand loyalty here.
I don't buy commercial speaker cabs, but look at them anyway.
I looked at a D210XST, and laughed very hard at the price.
I'd own an Avatar Neo 410 anytime, if I had a thing for 4x10, which I don't.
If called upon to buy a commercial cab, I'd pony up for the engineering in an Acme B2.

 

[JimmyM]

Wow, many interesting and diverse replies and all in a very "mature" attitude.

Just a bit of clarification for JimmyM. You said:


Do you mean all amps work for everything? (I got a bit confused, honestly, but English is not my first language.)

You are basically right about the player being the important thing; however, amp voicing, available tone controls, compressors etc play a big role for some people's sound. And I believe that "gear factor" gets gradually more important the further away from the "original", four string, "holding down the bottom", clean-ish, finger style you go.

It would probably be hard to replicate the big, "elegant", mid scooped and compressed 80s SWR tone on a Peavey from the same era.

Or to boost the important mids for fretless tone if you have a Fender tone stack amp.

I disagree, and yes, that was exactly what I was saying. Give me an amp and I'll make it work no matter what it is. I've had to do too many gigs with amps I don't like, and never once got a sound that didn't work for the band(s).

 

[fnordlyone]

I am certifiably insane with desire to hear all the "brands," but can afford none. At the same time (now), I trumpet my "no name brand" good gear for other finance challenge'd folk. The more I research and experience, the more I fall into: the proof is in the pudding category. Still, good TB vet advice got me to BDDI and QSC and Rotoflats. Lucked into the rest, like meeting Duke Lejeune.
I'm too new at the game to become an ignorant red neck with his Chevy vs Ford vs Ram Tough nonsense. They are all rectangles with wheels with open cabs behind them
that drink too much gas,
fnord!

 

[Pimmsley]

The proof of the pudding, is in the eating...

Some amps can leave a bad taste in your mouth

 

[MrMcHaggis]

Personally, I love Hartke's customer service, but I've presently found myself gigging with a Markbass rig.

Still practice at home with a HyDrive though, just to support.