Double Bass Gut strings - the old standard for string gauges.

[korotkov]

Hey there folks,

There's my recent find that j want to share. I found a soviet bass method book from the 30s that contains a few of the howto articles on bass repairs, making rosin and gut strings(!) what strikes me most is that the book offers standard gauges ( 2.2mm g 2.7mm d etc) for solo tuning which makes perfect sense tension-wise when compared to say spires downtuned. Regular orchestra gages are much heavier with g at 2.6 which makes it close to modern medium d. The book suggests that g string height should be around 10mm. I asked around and learned from older folks who played guts in the early days that the strings were thicker than the ones I use ( chorda ch). They also told me they didn't have the strings very high, pretty close to the setup we use for metal strings now (g 9-10mm)

What is the reason for such a big difference? I'm pretty sure that in Russia everybody used that gauge/setup until mid 60s to the very least. The book was reissued then without these recommendations

What really makes if stand out is that it offers progressive study of orchestra excerpts from Bach and haendel to more advanced romantic music, as well as many bass duets that are a pleasure to play. I might start a new topic on this boom in another section if there's interest to it

Regards,

 

[DoubleMIDI]

That's interesting. I have older Pirastro Gold gut strings, wound orchestral A, E, B, and measured the tension of the A once and the tension was at least 15% higher than my Efrano Medium gut strings (which are a bit on the lighter side except the high C).

Could you give us the diameters of all strings or does it make not much sense because they are wound?

 

[korotkov]

I dont have the book at hand right now but I will post the measurements as soon as I get it back. As far as I remember, the author suggests that one should use well played G and D strings to make wound A and E so they should be respectively thicker. The idea is that used guts had stretched well and would make more stable wound strings wich makes perfect sence to me. New strings, to the contrary, have a tendency to stretch so the winding may loose contact to the core. He also stated that the manufacturers often uses strings with visual or structural imperfections for wound strings and they turn untrue or even break quickly. Looks like home made wound strings were quite common then ))

 

[korotkov]

Okay folks, I found a scanned version of this book. Here's the link

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[Bisounourse]

Is there a more clear picture available? (My Russian isn't as good as it used to be, and the fuzzy image makes reading the text rather difficult). (I did get the measurements though).

 

[korotkov]

hey thank you, the image is not great indeed but that is a photo of a computer screen so i couldnt make it better. Ive got the whole book in jpg quite nice quality but i dont really know where i could post it. maybe i should make it a pdf first.

the text pictured, by the way, is nothing special, just some advice on strings matching. it sais that changing strings too often is bad for both the bass and the player and that one could change the sound of the whole instrument by changing the gauge of one string so its better to find the gauges that fit the bass the best and stick to them for some time. then there are some gauges that should fit the average bass (G D A(plain) A(wound) Low C for orchestra and G D A (plain and wound) and E for solo playing)

he also mentions that theres a lot of solo players who prefer lighter gauge for ease of playing and fluidity but they lack in the sound department great lots. ))

regards,

 

[Bisounourse]

Спасибо большой!

 

[DoubleMIDI]

I guess it's plain: G, D, A; wound: A, E, low C in the first list. There are 6 strings.

But many thanks. The plain gut is really interesting, I probably need to take the D (2.7 mm) for a G with my Efranos getting 31 kg tension on a 105 cm scale (maybe a bit less because of stretching). That's quite a lot. The regular pitch for the D is 17.4 kg, that's a bit low. My Efrano high C is 1.8 mm with 24.3 kg (the Pirastro Gold wound A is similar: 24.4 kg), that's nice and not too weak, could be one or two kg more but I think about 30 kg or more is a bit much and might work for orchestra but hardly for a bit more modern jazz for the lower strings at least.

 

[korotkov]

There is a scale of 110cm mentioned in the book earlier as well as 17cm afterlength. That does not sound right for modern instrument. the bridge height of 15.5cm suggested there would not make an extra high tension i think.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

The height of the bridge does not influence string tension, only top pressure.
I have a 110 cm scald on my 5-string. Makes sense for a low B (but I seldom use a low B). But then the tension is about 12% higher, so 34 kg, which really is on the high side. The 2.6 mm might have a bit less, but I haven't calculated a formula for relative tension of different string diameters on the same pitch. It would only work with naked gut anyway and probably with monofiber synthetic strings, so there is not much use for it.
The 17 cm after length are a bit short for a 110 cm scale, I think, but this depends on the shape of the bass and the tailpiece.

 

[Brian DeJesus]

Does anyone know what method book this is and/or have a source for this book? From the information here I think it's "School for Double Bass" by Aleksander Andreevich Milushkin 1933,Милушкин Александр Андреевич Школу для контрабаса 1933. I'm interested in the information about strings and repair. I found his earlier 3 books as well.

 

[BassFalcon]

This is all very cool info. I love learning about the old ways.

 

[flixbass]

Hello
I thought I'd add it, might belong here.
Theodor Albin Findeisen suggests the following string gauges and setup in his double bass method book from 1930:
G (plain) 2,1 mm, D (plain) 2,7 mm, A (wound) 2,5 mm, A (plain) 3,5 mm, E (wound) 3,2 mm. String height at the end of the fingerboard approx. 12 mm.
Findeisen writes, that these recommendations are meant for the beginning student to have an instrument that can be played with ease. So the setup for normal orchestral basses might have been different.

 

[ctxbass]

Hello
I thought I'd add it, might belong here.
Theodor Albin Findeisen suggests the following string gauges and setup in his double bass method book from 1930:
G (plain) 2,1 mm, D (plain) 2,7 mm, A (wound) 2,5 mm, A (plain) 3,5 mm, E (wound) 3,2 mm.

Very similar to the Pirastro Chorda Carlos Henriquez set.

 

[Eli Brockway]

This'll be a bit recursive because I've referred back to this thread sometimes in these but I've made multiple posts on this topic, many of which are linked in that one I just linked. I also talked about the Zimmerman method lower down in that thread talking about string gauges too. It definitely seems like the common expectation was heavier strings for pro orchestra play, lighter stuff for solo play or for beginning players (or just general use after a certain point in time).

 

[flixbass]

Maybe we can make a sticky post or an entry into the wiki?

 

[LouisF]

After discussions with the folks at Toro Strings in Italy, where I explained my playing was 100% orchestral, we decided on the following (which aligns with Eli's "heavier strings for pro orchestra play" theorem:

G diam 240 di montone / 180cm = euro 72.00
D diam 300 di montone / 180cm = euro 90.00
A diam 400 di montone / 180cm = euro 165

(montone=ram)