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Hand-position in first 5 frets when reading standard notation?

The (major) arpeggio pattern that gives me the most trouble, due to positioning, is the 5-fret 3-string one: 1 & 3 on first string, 5 on next string, octave on next string.

I suspect thumb-pivot is key, but I am REALLY terrible with that.

I just change positions. Let's say it's G major:

G 3rd fret, E, index (could be any finger...depends on what position you were in)
SHIFT UP to frets 5, 6 and 7
B 7th fret, E, pinky (optional: slide into the note)
D 5th fret, A, index
G 5th fret, D, index

Other notes that can be added in this position:

Bb 6th fret, E,middle (this is the minor 3rd)
B 7th fret, E, pinky (hammer-on, common in blues playing)

E 7th fret, A, pinky (this is the 6th)

F 8th fret, A, pinky (this is the b7th) stretch to one finger per fret, thumb pivot or shift up one fret

A 7th fret, D, pinky (this is the 9th)

C 5th fret, C, index (this is the 11th)

If you add the A at the 5th fret of the E, you can play the major pentatonic with only one shift:

G (shift) A B D E
 
I would highly recommend venturing out from the first position. I did that for a long, long time and you're missing out on much easier ways to play things than just the first 5 frets and then moving up the GH string for the higher notes.

When not reading, I am all over the fretboard. It is just that right now, I am trying to learn how to play in all keys within the first 5 frets, in an attempt to get away from my "pattern" thinking.
 
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I doubt this will be helpful, but I'd advise against developing any sort of hard and fast rules about what position you should use in any particular key. I'd be concerned that you're going to lock yourself into some habits that will be hard to break, especially as you look to get past the first five frets. Real-world music is rarely purely diatonic. There are always out of key chords or key changes that necessitate flexibility. Plus, you've already noticed that this strategy is causing you problems when you have to play down on the first fret.

Take your time and figure out what works best for you. Try different ways of playing a piece and decide what sounds best and is most comfortable. This isn't a process that happens overnight. It takes time.

My first two bass teachers told me to never play open strings. I was young and stupid, and I listened to them. By the time I got to college, my teacher asked me why I was killing myself to avoid open strings. I was working on something from the Bach Cello Suites, and I was getting twisted up trying to fret everything. I was following some ill-advised rule at the expense of making music. That's a trap you don't want to fall into. Don't lock yourself into anything.
 
Yep, OFPF! It's thumb-pivot and shifting I am struggling with.
I'll tell you one thing that helped me: Playing and understanding the modes is very helpful for remembering where your fingers are supposed to go. If you remember those "shapes" it's easier to navigate around. For example, if you are playing in the key of A major in the first position you play F Aeolian (F natural minor).

I hope this helps.
 
@OldSchoolFlats ,

I play both by interval and by visualizing the notes on the finger board. My fluency varies somewhat depending on the key. I am a retired pro and the only reading I currently do is play changes and sometimes rework melodies from the Real Book (which usually entails reading in treble clef).

Reading is a skill that must be developed, and also maintained. If you play frequently in difficult keys, those keys will become easier. If you stop playing in those difficult keys, your competency level will drop. There was a time when I was very comfortable reading in Gb major. Probably not so good at it now, because I have not done it for years. If I am improvising over chord changes, my mind can sort of go on automatic because I know the patterns and have a decent ear. The idea is I use a variety of mental processes when I am playing. If one process fails, I may still play the right notes because another mental process kicks in to cover the gap.

Based on what you have written, my impression is you haven't fully explored the idea that there are multiple ways to play different lines. You might think of it as different hand positions, or different shift and finger patterns. Sorry, but if you want to be a fluent reader you can't rely on just one way to play a certain pattern.

What determines the specific pattern you use is where you are coming from and where you are going. For example, if you were to play just a minor 7th arpeggio from root position up, you would probably start with your index finger on the root and play 1 (root), 4 (minor 3rd), 3 (perfect 5th), 1 (minor 7th).

But this may not be the best pattern to use in the middle of a bass line. Instead you have to consider where you are coming from and where you are going. The line you are playing may set you up to start the arpeggio with the pinkie, so you might play 4 (root), 2 (minor 3rd), 1 (perfect 5th), 4 (minor 7th).

Both of these patterns allow you to play the minor 7th arpeggio with no shifts, and my guess is you will find starting on 1 to be easier. But there are times when it makes more sense to use the second pattern, so you need to know both.

Also you can play the pure minor scale (root to root) with both of these hand positions. The first position allows you to play from root to root with no shifts. The second position requires at least one shift to play the root at the top of the scale. Ideally you need to know the intervals between all fingers and the notes under all fingers with both hand positions.

To be a good sight reader you should be able to place a finger anywhere on the fretboard and name the note...of course this is a bit complicated because of the concept of enharmonics: Since C#=Db you have to figure out which note to call the fret, and that requires you to understand where the key center is. My point is your mental map of the hand positions changes depending upon the key center.

IMHO practicing modes can help expand your understanding of key centers and also open up your mind to different finger patterns. Try to work out a variety of finger patterns for the different scales and modes. Also, I suggest learning a variety of patterns for your 7 chords.

If you use one finger per fret, the box should be expanded from the four frets under your fingers, to the first fret immediately above and below your fingers. I think of this as 4 +/-1. Essentially you use micro pivots to expand the box by two frets. Scotts calls this 4+2: see video below.



It can be overwhelming and intimidating because there is so much to learn. In truth you could spend a life time studying music and still have plenty to learn when your time is up. I suggest focusing on enjoying the path to enlightenment, rather than expecting that you are going to reach some destination where you have learned all that you need to know. IMHO when you reach the point where you are no longer interested in learning, there is a good chance your motivation to play music will be greatly decreased.
 
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Im not a pro, but when reading I turn my chair about 45 degrees to the music stand so I am looking across the neck to the sheet music, like pointing the headstock just to the left of the music stand.

never looking “at my hand” but its there in my peripheral vision.
 
This may be part of my struggle.
That’s my point! You will learn to be free as you deal with and resolve the struggle to come up with your own solutions on left hand technique while reading the bass clef.
If one thing doesn’t work, you are free to do something else! Embrace that freedom! If you need to play a minor arpeggio starting with your index finger, middle finger, or pinky finger, then be free to do what is most efficient for you.
Trying to figure it out IS the way you will learn. (….and help you become familiar with every note on every fret of your bass…) Yes, there are certain “standard fingering patterns”, but there is no such thing as the “bass patterning or bass fingering police” who will confiscate your bass if you “break the rules”!!!!
I commend you for focusing on just the first five frets. Stick with it and you will find that your reading and fingering will become habit……you will soon be reading and playing without thinking.
Have fun! Be free!!!
 
There is plenty of positions to play a scale or arpeggios…
So staying locked in a pattern makes things very difficult to be fluent event if you stay in the first 5 frets.
My first teacher was a guitar player doubling on bass. I know they have bad reputation here but they have interesting and creative ideas.

hé tought me that you have pretty much 5 arpeggios shape that goes along 5 root to root scale on a 4 strings bass.
R 3 5 which is C major using open string
R 5 8 which is C major using box pattern without open string
R 3 5 8 which is G major using open strings
R 5 8 10 which is G major using box pattern without open string
3 R 5 which is F major using a kind of spread box pattern without open string (most difficult position to do)

I don’t know how to explain it better than that … it would be easier in person.
 
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There is plenty of positions to play a scale or arpeggios…
So staying locked in a pattern makes things very difficult to be fluent event if you stay in the first 5 frets.
My first teacher was a guitar player doubling on bass. I know they have bad reputation here but they have interesting and creative ideas.

hé tought me that you have pretty much 5 arpeggios shape that goes along 5 root to root scale on a 4 strings bass.
R 3 5 which is C major using open string
R 5 8 which is C major using box pattern without open string
R 3 5 8 which is G major using open strings
R 5 8 10 which is G major using box pattern without open string
3 R 5 which is F major using a kind of spread box pattern without open string (most difficult position to do)

I don’t know how to explain it better than that … it would be easier in person.

Overall, this is what I am aiming towards. I want to be able to effortlessly use all the arpeggio patterns, in all the keys, up and down the neck. I want to get to the point where I can do voice-leading: seeing the nearest chord tone when the chord changes.

Separately, I want something very simple for reading music in the first 5 frets. The "4+2" video above from Scott's Bass Lessons seems most appropriate.
 
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@OldSchoolFlats ,

I play both by interval and by visualizing the notes on the finger board. My fluency varies somewhat depending on the key. I am a retired pro and the only reading I currently do is play changes and sometimes rework melodies from the Real Book (which usually entails reading in treble clef).

Reading is a skill that must be developed, and also maintained. If you play frequently in difficult keys, those keys will become easier. If you stop playing in those difficult keys, your competency level will drop. There was a time when I was very comfortable reading in Gb major. Probably not so good at it now, because I have not done it for years. If I am improvising over chord changes, my mind can sort of go on automatic because I know the patterns and have a decent ear. The idea is I use a variety of mental processes when I am playing. If one process fails, I may still play the right notes because another mental process kicks in to cover the gap.

Based on what you have written, my impression is you haven't fully explored the idea that there are multiple ways to play different lines. You might think of it as different hand positions, or different shift and finger patterns. Sorry, but if you want to be a fluent reader you can't rely on just one way to play a certain pattern.

What determines the specific pattern you use is where you are coming from and where you are going. For example, if you were to play just a minor 7th arpeggio from root position up, you would probably start with your index finger on the root and play 1 (root), 4 (minor 3rd), 3 (perfect 5th), 1 (minor 7th).

But this may not be the best pattern to use in the middle of a bass line. Instead you have to consider where you are coming from and where you are going. The line you are playing may set you up to start the arpeggio with the pinkie, so you might play 4 (root), 2 (minor 3rd), 1 (perfect 5th), 4 (minor 7th).

Both of these patterns allow you to play the minor 7th arpeggio with no shifts, and my guess is you will find starting on 1 to be easier. But there are times when it makes more sense to use the second pattern, so you need to know both.

Also you can play the pure minor scale (root to root) with both of these hand positions. The first position allows you to play from root to root with no shifts. The second position requires at least one shift to play the root at the top of the scale. Ideally you need to know the intervals between all fingers and the notes under all fingers with both hand positions.

To be a good sight reader you should be able to place a finger anywhere on the fretboard and name the note...of course this is a bit complicated because of the concept of enharmonics: Since C#=Db you have to figure out which note to call the fret, and that requires you to understand where the key center is. My point is your mental map of the hand positions changes depending upon the key center.

IMHO practicing modes can help expand your understanding of key centers and also open up your mind to different finger patterns. Try to work out a variety of finger patterns for the different scales and modes. Also, I suggest learning a variety of patterns for your 7 chords.

If you use one finger per fret, the box should be expanded from the four frets under your fingers, to the first fret immediately above and below your fingers. I think of this as 4 +/-1. Essentially you use micro pivots to expand the box by two frets. Scotts calls this 4+2: see video below.



It can be overwhelming and intimidating because there is so much to learn. In truth you could spend a life time studying music and still have plenty to learn when your time is up. I suggest focusing on enjoying the path to enlightenment, rather than expecting that you are going to reach some destination where you have learned all that you need to know. IMHO when you reach the point where you are no longer interested in learning, there is a good chance your motivation to play music will be greatly decreased.


The 4+2 is perfect for me right now: thanks!!

For groovin' bass-parts, I will want to base the position on the key, and just use the written music to transfer the groove to muscle memory. For my OP though, 4+2 solves my problem. I had already picked-up something similar from TalkingBass (more 4+1, on fret 2), but nice to get confirmation. Right now, I am focusing on knowing where the notes are in relation to each other, and plowing through my beginner bass-reading book. I find as I learn a sizable chunk of the fretboard, and where the letter notes are in relation to each other, I can transfer to other parts of the fretboard. Mostly right now, I want to better visualize where all the letter notes are in relation to each other. Back in the day, I just learned the string names, where a few notes were (G and A on E string, etc.), and otherwise used patterns.

I already know the scales, modes and arpeggios PRETTY well, and can learn parts OK by ear (excluding 16th note syncopation and shuffle) but my muscle memory is locked into a relatively small number of patterns. I want to read (and fumble) over the first 5 frets with written parts, to force my fingers to use new patterns.
 
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The 4+2 is perfect for me right now: thanks!!

For groovin' bass-parts, I will want to base the position on the key, and just use the written music to transfer the groove to muscle memory. For my OP though, 4+2 solves my problem. I had already picked-up something similar from TalkingBass (more 4+1, on fret 2), but nice to get confirmation. Right now, I am focusing on knowing where the notes are in relation to each other, and plowing through my beginner bass-reading book. I find as I learn a sizable chunk of the fretboard, and where the letter notes are in relation to each other, I can transfer to other parts of the fretboard. Mostly right now, I want to better visualize where all the letter notes are in relation to each other. Back in the day, I just learned the string names, where a few notes were (G and A on E string, etc.), and otherwise used patterns.

I already know the scales, modes and arpeggios PRETTY well, and can learn parts OK by ear (excluding 16th note syncopation and shuffle) but my muscle memory is locked into a relatively small number of patterns. I want to read (and fumble) over the first 5 frets with written parts, to force my fingers to use new patterns.


You draw on many mental processes/skills simultaneously while you are playing bass. Copying great bass lines that were played by a variety of players helps you develop a library of patterns you can play over a given chord.

I originally learned to play walking bass lines by reading written out parts and doing note for note record lifts. This was several years before I learned enough theory to make up my own lines. I actually played in a university big when I was a junior in high school. Many of the charts were primarily written out as chords. I could follow the measures, but did not have any significant grasp of how to interpret the chord symbols. The director gave me recordings of the arrangements, and I learned the bass lines from the recordings well enough to rehearse and perform with the band.

Later when I started trying to apply the music theory I was learning in college to crafting my own walking bass lines, I already had a pretty wide variety of patterns in my head since I had already played in a big band for 2-3 years. This allowed my somewhat developed ear to help inform which note choices to play.

When learning a song today, reading most chord charts is fairly automatic. This is because I have substantially developed many of the necessary mental process. If the song has highly altered and/or unusual harmony, it can still be necessary to slow down work out which notes to play; especially the non-chord tones. If this occurs, it will take me several play throughs to get the harmony in my head and under my fingers. This does not happen very often...but it does still happen.
 
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