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Has Anyone Been Screwed When Using a Contract?

jive1

jive1

Commercial User
Jan 16, 2003
12,525
4,060
55
Alexandria,VA
www.jivesound.com
Disclosures
Owner/Retailer: Jive Sound
#1
There's been some discussion on the value of contracts, and I'm curious as to what people's experiences are. Especially, whether anyone still got screwed even though they had a contract.

I know there's going to be some folks who say a band can't get a gig around here if you ask for a contract, and that's fine. The discussion is centered more around folks that have used them, instead of whether or not to use them.
 
#3
So far My band has only had one issue when we used a contract for a show. We signed on it the event, date,time, in advance. We showed up and played and was told by contract we would be paid in 7 days by the promoter by check.

I received a call from the promoter a week later (when the check was to come) She said that the check was being held up by the company (large outdoor mall/developer) we both were hired by and it was to be paid by them soon. The promoter who we signed the contract with said she did not have the $500.00 she owed us and we would get payed when they paid her. We were not happy but did finally get the money about a month later.
 
#4
jive1 said:
There's been some discussion on the value of contracts, and I'm curious as to what people's experiences are. Especially, whether anyone still got screwed even though they had a contract.

I know there's going to be some folks who say a band can't get a gig around here if you ask for a contract, and that's fine. The discussion is centered more around folks that have used them, instead of whether or not to use them.
Click to expand...

Most local bands wouldn't have the $$ to go to small claims court.
 
#5
jive1 said:
There's been some discussion on the value of contracts, and I'm curious as to what people's experiences are. Especially, whether anyone still got screwed even though they had a contract.

I know there's going to be some folks who say a band can't get a gig around here if you ask for a contract, and that's fine. The discussion is centered more around folks that have used them, instead of whether or not to use them.
Click to expand...

I have been screwed when on contract.
I screwed them back though.
 
#7
Most of the contracts I have had experience with were when we played for cruise companies, Disney World, resorts, corporate events. Although I did not see all of these contracts (BL and booking agent took care of that) it was always my impression that the venue had fairly wide latitude to let us go without compensating us for the work that remained on the contract. So, other than guarantee what we would get paid on the days/nights we did in fact play (something you tend not to worry about with venues like that), the contracts did very little else. I remember that Disney cancelled us a couple of weeks early in a 3 month contract, and I got let go off a cruise ship once a month early. Both time with about a week or so notice. Very little time at that point to make up that kind of $$. I guess you could call that getting "burned"; but if we would have insisted on a full length of contract clause or something of the sort, we would have been told to take a hike and never have gotten the gig in the first place.

I also remember once trying to get a "bar" venue to give us a contract for a weekend gig, complete with a deposit and a guarantee that if the venue cancelled us within 5 days of the gig, we would keep the deposit. With a straight face, the venue manager said sure, but we would have to post a bond (oddly enough in the exact amount of the deposit we wanted) that would be forfeited to the club if the BAND cancelled the gig within 7 days of the show. He also wanted a "no subs" clause that said the band he was booking consisted of the following 4 musicians, and if different people showed up the night of the gig the bond would also be forfeited. We politely declined, but decided to play there anyway and went on to 3-4 years of great paying regular gigs there.
 
#8
I've been screwed several times when using a contract. A contract is only good if you can enforce it. When you are dealing with the lowest form of life (club owners and promoters) and second lowest form of life (agents), you are bound to get screwed once in a while. They can usually make it more trouble to collect the money than it's worth.

Let's never forget that they are villainous, treacherous, pustule laden scabs on the a** of musicians. Expect the worst from them and you will never be disappointed. :D
 
#9
Factor88 said:
Although I did not see all of these contracts (BL and booking agent took care of that) it was always my impression that the venue had fairly wide latitude to let us go without compensating us for the work that remained on the contract.
Click to expand...

Let's not forget that despite what they may tell us, Agents are working for the clubs, not the bands. They get paid regardless of who they book into the club, so where do you think their loyalty lies?
 
#10
Got screwed a bit on a contract in the 90's.
We setup an originals band which was fast becoming extremely popular (recorded album and played on radio & TV), and were approached by a promotions company to sign on for 3 years.
All went well until we signed, then the promoter showed us his bussiness partner, who was in our rival/nemesis band, and not quite as good or popular as us.
We ended up playing support only for that band for then next 3 years, but you couldn't fool the punters, they would come see us and then leave.
Finally we put the contract to the test and organised our own gigs, and told them "sue us then".
 
#11
lfmn16 said:
I've been screwed several times when using a contract. A contract is only good if you can enforce it. When you are dealing with the lowest form of life (club owners and promoters) and second lowest form of life (agents), you are bound to get screwed once in a while. They can usually make it more trouble to collect the money than it's worth.

Let's never forget that they are villainous, treacherous, pustule laden scabs on the a** of musicians. Expect the worst from them and you will never be disappointed. :D
Click to expand...

Sometimes, you need to sick an even lower form against them if you win a claim, and they still don't pay - a collection agency. For a gig paying a alot of money, I wouldn't mind letting some pesty agency take a chunk out to bother some scumbag and take a knock on their credit rating.
 
#12
lfmn16 said:
Let's not forget that despite what they may tell us, Agents are working for the clubs, not the bands. They get paid regardless of who they book into the club, so where do you think their loyalty lies?
Click to expand...

So true. A agent usually will more likely bend over backwards to avoid losing a room than losing a band.
 
#16
Factor88 said:
...

I also remember once trying to get a "bar" venue to give us a contract for a weekend gig, complete with a deposit and a guarantee that if the venue cancelled us within 5 days of the gig, we would keep the deposit. With a straight face, the venue manager said sure, but we would have to post a bond (oddly enough in the exact amount of the deposit we wanted) that would be forfeited to the club if the BAND cancelled the gig within 7 days of the show. He also wanted a "no subs" clause that said the band he was booking consisted of the following 4 musicians, and if different people showed up the night of the gig the bond would also be forfeited. We politely declined, but decided to play there anyway and went on to 3-4 years of great paying regular gigs there.
Click to expand...

Now that is I guy I would like to do business with! I'd probably handle it just like you did, too.

I've only been burned once, over the matter of being paid the full amount. Never been back there, & figured it wasn't worth the trouble to pursue the matter. But that does bring up what I think is the most valuable thing that a written contract does for you: It helps you identify, up front, before any real damage is done, who is intending to screw you over. If they don't want a signed contract, why not? Is this not exactly the terms that you've both just agreed upon? Better to find out now, before any travel, before any equipment is unloaded & set up, before any music is played, etc.

The other really useful thing about contracts is that they serve as a checklist, to help you make sure you ask all the right questions. Not just money, but who else is/isn't on the bill, who's responsible for the PA, when you can load in/out, food/bar tabs, etc. All of the "little things" that sometimes get forgotten.

Oh, & one more thing: I don't think it ever hurts to look prepared & businesslike when you're conducting business. Being ready & on top of things looks good, at least to anybody that I'd care about looking good to (in a business setting).

I think most of the problems people have with contracts have more to do with how they go about them. If you've already checked off all of the important points & agree on what's going to happen, when, by whom, etc., let's just indicate here that we're in agreement, then, OK? No strong-arming, or trying to come across as some kind of bad-ass. But at that point, if we've agreed on everything so far, I'd be really curious why not? That might be the 1st tip-off that other problems lie ahead!
 
#18
lowfreq33 said:
The most useful thing about a contract is it can spell[DEL]s[/DEL] out the expectations of both parties on a single document and eliminate[DEL]s[/DEL] confusion if done correctly.
Click to expand...

Note the adjustments. A badly-worded contract can be worse than none at all. People trying to write & act all "lawyerly" can & often do make a mess that is anything but clear!
 
#19
The only time a contract didn't help was because we flexed as opposed to making the venue stick to the contract they wrote up. Luckily, when we stood by the contract for the second date for that venue, it really helped.

We had one gig where we were supposed to play from 8-11, with a stated time when we could start setting up. But, they booked a different event that didn't end until 8:30. The event took up the entire parking lot, which required us to park and haul our gear from a faraway parking lot. They would not even let us unload until the event was over. We didn't start unloading until 8:30, and I told them we would need at least 1 hour to set up, preferably 2. They weren't happy about it, but I pointed we arrived 2 hours earlier to set up as per the contract. The management was on our case to get started about 45 minutes into our setup, so we did a rough setup with no sound check. Needless to say, we did not have optimal sound or lighting for the first set. Since we would have only played one hour, if we stood by the contract, we agreed we'd do them a favor by playing until midnight. The problem was it was an outdoor gig, and there was a noise ordinance that the management didn't know about, and the cops came. Management wasn't happy, and they cancelled our next gig.

In hindsight, I should have just shown the manager on duty that night our contract and insisted we get to set up as per the contract, or we'll keep the deposit and go home since the contract stated that we could for cancellations due to administrative reasons (which included double booking). Or we could have ended at 11 like the contract said, and no problems with the cops.

Now this same venue called asking for their deposit back for the cancelled gig. Probably one of the consequences of flexing on the contract the first time. Anyway, I didn't have to argue or even talk to them aside from 2 short emails. One manager tried calling and left a kind message and another manager sent me a nasty e-mail requesting me to call him about the matter. I said that we considered the matter closed, to please review the contract, and if there is anything they want to say, to send it to me in writing. I never heard back from them, and we kept our deposit with no further communication from them. This was a corporate venue with locations in the US and UK, and without the contract I doubt it would have ended as well as it did.
 
#20
jive1 said:
So true. A agent usually will more likely bend over backwards to avoid losing a room than losing a band.
Click to expand...
And if they have to bend the band over forwards to do so, its no skin off their nose...

The great thing about a contract is it spells out everything, so there's no last minute "misunderstandings". The problem is nothing forces them to abide by the terms of the contract if they don't want to, short of taking them to court.

The best protection against getting screwed is a bar owner that wants you back for return gigs. As long as that's true, they won't mess with you.

Randy
 

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