Has FOH ever done this to you without your knowledge?

[fauxtoe]

I've had something similar done at the church I serve at.

The sound engineer, who is a great person, decided he didn't like one of my synth tones. He set a LPF filter at 2k to tame it. He apparently "forgot" to turn it off and it was part of his scene when he did sound for us on Sundays.

We record our live performances and I heard something was very wrong with my tone. One rehearsal I walked out front and played some upper register notes which didn't cut through at all. Almost like I wasn't playing. I finished the song. At the end of the song I unplugged my bass and packed up my board. While I was leaving he followed me to the door. We had a conversation and I asked him how did the bass sound to him?

Long story short he admitted that he didn't like what I did for certain parts and that was the only thing that "fixed it". I asked him how long he prepared for each Sunday and made it clear that the tones I was using were similar to the recordings. I also mentioned I wouldn't be serving anymore if he was going to continue taking liberties with my tone.

Apparently our conversation got back to the worship leader of both of our churches, who also happens to be his wife. I'm not sure how that conversation went but he no longer runs sound for our Sunday service. While I'm not proud or happy with that result our new main sound guy has worked with me and has done a fantastic job of capturing my tones and has provided great feedback on volume levels between sounds.

Lately the recordings have sounded great!

I think sometimes there is a weird dynamic and power struggle where sound guys make decisions that don't benefit the situation.

Hopefully your sound guy reacts professionally and does better for you. I can't think of a worse situation at a gig where you come in prepared and perform great only to realize that something like this happens.

Sometimes you have to stand firm and reset expectations. Sounds like you did that.

Here’s another one for you - how about having any time you play a G note for it to completely disappear from the mix? Like I never even played it.

 

[FRoss6788]

It IS the FOH' call to make. It's literally in the job description. That person is responsible for how the band sounds to the audience in the venue. Whether the person produces quality results over and over is a different conversation.

BS

Adding an effect like that requires a discussion prior to the performance, it's NOT the FOH's call to augment any members performance in that kind of manner unilaterally.

 

[JazznFunk]

This thread unearthed something I encountered on a gig years ago, at a local chain sports bar deal where they had regular music. This spot would give touring bands who played at their bars in other locations a gig and I ended up on a gig as a sub. My assumption is that this engineer had to deal with players who had sloppy time a lot.

After we finished the first set, the sound engineer (who I didn't know) came up and complimented me on my tone and feel. I appreciated it, but then he said something to this effect: 'Yeah, normally what I have to do is take the kick drum and the bass signal and align them so the feel is right, but I didn't have to do that with you.' I silently dropped my jaw. I *think* he was just talking about sidechaining the bass and kick so he could duck one of the 2 under the other to clarify the bottom end (not uncommon), but he made it sound like he was sampling/delaying something and then shifting it in the FOH mix to clean up sloppy players who didn't have good time in the rhythm section. I didn't have the time or desire to ask him to clarify further what he meant.

 

[JazznFunk]

BS

Adding an effect like that requires a discussion prior to the performance, it's NOT the FOH's call to augment any members performance in that kind of manner unilaterally.

This. It's akin to a mastering engineer adding reverb to the tracks during the mastering phase that the artist didn't ask for.

 

[JazznFunk]

I’ve had experiences with certain PAs that had subs that SEEMED to have an octaver type of sound going on, with no processing applied. I even spent time in soundcheck chasing down whether any fx were on the channel, and it was just the insane low harmonics being produced by certain speakers. One soundguy I work with had 21” subs, and the did this no matter what we tried to do to dial it out.

It’s possible this is a similar situation.

Yep. The curse of the un-shelved, flabby, unnecessarily hyped sub rears its head.... again.

 

[bucephylus]

I've had something new happen that perplexed me enough that I had to speak up where I would normally just stay in my lane. I'm not going to dwell into that aspect of it as a conversation took place and it's being discussed beyond my pay grade, but here's what happened...

I was listening to the playback of a recent gig and I noticed something very odd about what I was hearing with my bass vs what was actually being played - both visually and audibly in comparison to what I hear in my in-ears and send to the FOH. And then it clicked...our FOH engineer had applied a sub octave effect to everything I was playing on every song completely without my knowledge. It's literally like I had an octave pedal engaged over everything I was playing. If I played C on the third fret of the A string it sounded in the PA and recording as if I was playing a C on the first fret of the B string, and so on. Whole set, entirely like that. I had some melodic parts on a song that were being played above the 12th fret and it turned it all into garbled mud. All of my playing dynamics moving between octaves - gone.

I'm not going to pretend to know what our FOH has to deal with sonically in that room as I'm aware enough to hear with my own ears that it could be a handful. Our stage is silent except for drums (which are shielded), and the PA has flown mains with a couple stacks of dual 15 or 18" subs on each side. Amplifying bass in, in my mind, should not be a problem.

My setup to get a signal to them is with a Darkglass Anagram. At their request they get two channels from it - one that has an amp and cab sim applied, and one that does not. Either will get my effects when I apply them, and with the routing options of the Anagram it makes it super easy to do. I do my best to not over-EQ anything on the wet channel and it is essentially just a fattened tone, and I'm mostly flat on the electronics on my basses with usually a cut in treble depending on which bass I use. The dry channel is obviously everything without the amp and cab sim and it's as straight from my bass to the console as it can get. Effects are used very, very sparingly.

Talkbass - What the heck is going on that they felt they needed to run a sub octave effect? I've tried to read up on this and there seems to be no straight answer. I could understand maybe needing to fill some sonic space, but it was done completely at the expense of destroying my playing dynamics and note choice. I use a 5 string bass and I have no problem treading into the lower range especially since we've had to pitch songs down to accommodate vocal range. I feel like I've given them enough choices to work with that finding what works shouldn't be a tall task. With every mix I've ever heard the simple solution that I could think of to have more bass would be to turn up its volume and find a good eq curve that works. It shouldn't be complicated!

Help educate me if I've missed something new in the 27 years I've been playing bass.

Stuff happens; that particular kind of thing is thankfully rare.

The only thing that you have possibly missed is that there are a lot of different Sound Engineers out there, and that you are sometimes subject to their various choices about what constitutes a “best” mix. Different people have different perceptions and “hear” music in different ways.

I attended a sold out Trombone Shorty concert in Tucson at Centennial Auditorium ca. 2018. The SE clearly came from the school of 2000W subwoofers in kid-car Honda Civics; because he had the bass almost entirely in the the bins, and mixed the bass and kick so loud that they were drowning out the vocals. We left after 6 tunes. The mix was unbearable.

Most SE’s have excellent skills. In more recent years, I have only had maybe one or two negative experiences. But, they are out there. Best to just endure when it happens, and quickly put in the rear view mirror.

 

[fauxtoe]

So what would have happened if you put your own suboctave on?

The book of Revelations happens Stacking sub octaves could trigger the second coming. You all be careful out there!

In all seriousness, likely a jumbled mess or nothing. Either whatever is being applied can't keep up and glitches, or the subs aren't going to capable of reproducing it anyways.

I've had entire songs we've played where I used my own for a very specific reason and I can only imagine what mess that would have made on their end.

 

[Zbysek]

I've tried to read up on this and there seems to be no straight answer.

Why would you say that? The following seems to be a straight answer...

I could understand maybe needing to fill some sonic space

 

[darwin-bass]

So I guess I get to be the minority voice here.

As FoH tech, one time I did engage an octave effect on bass. Bassist heard at and we talked. We agreed it added to the song and in general added to the bass so I left it on at a low level for the whole set. He was happy.

 

[fauxtoe]

Why would you say that? The following seems to be a straight answer...

But it's not the straight answer because that's me trying to convey perplexity in a situation and simply trying to understand it. Look, this is hard to explain in text when everything happened in real time over several conversations made me question what I know about sound. I could have totally been out of touch and this was an industry norm that I was not aware of. I tried to research the idea off of Talkbass to see if I had simply missed something to do with FOH sound engineering and I couldn't come up with a definitive answer. So, here we are and the feedback that has been provided has been reaffirming that what I questioned was in fact something they should not be messing with.

 

[fauxtoe]

So I guess I get to be the minority voice here.

As FoH tech, one time I did engage an octave effect on bass. Bassist heard at and we talked. We agreed it added to the song and in general added to the bass so I left it on at a low level for the whole set. He was happy.

But what you did was have a conversation and conveyed your professional opinion in a way which made sense and you both agreed upon it. That's called healthy communication and I bet the bass player had a great deal of respect and trust for you after that gig. I know I would have even if I had said no to the octave. You are only in the minority because you communicated, which I'm fairly certain does not happen as often or as well as it should.

 

[Zbysek]

But it's not the straight answer because that's me trying to convey perplexity in a situation and simply trying to understand it. Look, this is hard to explain in text when everything happened in real time over several conversations made me question what I know about sound.

I see.

I could have totally been out of touch and this was an industry norm that I was not aware of. I tried to research the idea off of Talkbass to see if I had simply missed something to do with FOH sound engineering and I couldn't come up with a definitive answer. So, here we are and the feedback that has been provided has been reaffirming that what I questioned was in fact something they should not be messing with.

Let me add several comments:

1. I don't think it is an "industry norm". On the other hand, it is a tool which the SE has at his/her disposal. If used judiciously, it is a great tool.

2. Take the "reaffirmation" here with grain of salt. First, none of us was there to hear how your bass sounded in FOH. Second, this is bass forum. If you ask in sound forum, you might get different results. Third, there are some dissenters.

3. My approach to that "issue" would be slightly different. I would try to understand why the sound engineer did it and would cooperate with him to accomodate his needs. There are hints in your description that he needs more low frequencies from you (the fact that he asked for signal without cab sim...and the part when you speak about playing above 12th fret). If this is the case, I would either play some notes one octave lower and/or adjust the signal I send to him. I wouldn't be so sure that my (original) choice of notes was the best and the only possibility.

Remember: I was not there so I don't know how your bass sounded in FOH. May be the signal you send to FOH is perfect and he is simply wrong. And may be not...

Good luck!

 

[Podgorny]

My question to this is when is it appropriate to apply it in a live setting? I can't recall a single instance of being in an audience at a show and hearing all of the bass player's notes being pitched down an entire octave unless it was intentionally being triggered by his own octave pedal effect. This was not subtle.

Hence the use of the word "judiciously".

Subharmonic synths such as the aforementioned DBX 120 or Peavey Kosmos have been around for decades, and now there are dozens of options available in software. These tools typically employ filters at the input so that notes above or below a certain range are ignored, and they often contain some sort of distortion component. They can be very effective for increasing the weight of a sound, without simply turning up the low end with an EQ (which can be ineffective if there's no signal to be turned up, or even deleterious if there are acoustic problems in the room.)

You have without a doubt heard subharmonic synths thousands of times in your life without realizing it. From rock bass on records to the double-basses of a film score, and lots and lots of big live shows. Keep in mind that like the harmonics of a drawbar organ, you don't really notice that there's another note unless it's turned up too loud.

The choice of whether to use a tool like this SHOULD be up to the engineer whose job it is to use them to achieve the client's desired goals, just as the choice to apply reverb or EQ or compression or even the mute button. And just as with any tool, people who are bad at their job have made things worse by using them incorrectly.

 

[devnulljp]

Own sound crew, week after week. Same FOH engineer for at least the past couple years or so.

So, why not ask this guy? Then fire him and find someone else.

 

[jdjk7]

I've had something new happen that perplexed me enough that I had to speak up where I would normally just stay in my lane. I'm not going to dwell into that aspect of it as a conversation took place and it's being discussed beyond my pay grade, but here's what happened...

I was listening to the playback of a recent gig and I noticed something very odd about what I was hearing with my bass vs what was actually being played - both visually and audibly in comparison to what I hear in my in-ears and send to the FOH. And then it clicked...our FOH engineer had applied a sub octave effect to everything I was playing on every song completely without my knowledge. It's literally like I had an octave pedal engaged over everything I was playing. If I played C on the third fret of the A string it sounded in the PA and recording as if I was playing a C on the first fret of the B string, and so on. Whole set, entirely like that. I had some melodic parts on a song that were being played above the 12th fret and it turned it all into garbled mud. All of my playing dynamics moving between octaves - gone.

I'm not going to pretend to know what our FOH has to deal with sonically in that room as I'm aware enough to hear with my own ears that it could be a handful. Our stage is silent except for drums (which are shielded), and the PA has flown mains with a couple stacks of dual 15 or 18" subs on each side. Amplifying bass in, in my mind, should not be a problem.

My setup to get a signal to them is with a Darkglass Anagram. At their request they get two channels from it - one that has an amp and cab sim applied, and one that does not. Either will get my effects when I apply them, and with the routing options of the Anagram it makes it super easy to do. I do my best to not over-EQ anything on the wet channel and it is essentially just a fattened tone, and I'm mostly flat on the electronics on my basses with usually a cut in treble depending on which bass I use. The dry channel is obviously everything without the amp and cab sim and it's as straight from my bass to the console as it can get. Effects are used very, very sparingly.

Talkbass - What the heck is going on that they felt they needed to run a sub octave effect? I've tried to read up on this and there seems to be no straight answer. I could understand maybe needing to fill some sonic space, but it was done completely at the expense of destroying my playing dynamics and note choice. I use a 5 string bass and I have no problem treading into the lower range especially since we've had to pitch songs down to accommodate vocal range. I feel like I've given them enough choices to work with that finding what works shouldn't be a tall task. With every mix I've ever heard the simple solution that I could think of to have more bass would be to turn up its volume and find a good eq curve that works. It shouldn't be complicated!

Help educate me if I've missed something new in the 27 years I've been playing bass.

I won't say that I would expect a sound guy to do this, but I will say that it does reinforce my pre-conceived notion of how the stereotypical sound guy thinks a bass guitar should sound.

 

[Freight Train]

I've had something new happen that perplexed me enough that I had to speak up where I would normally just stay in my lane. I'm not going to dwell into that aspect of it as a conversation took place and it's being discussed beyond my pay grade, but here's what happened...

I was listening to the playback of a recent gig and I noticed something very odd about what I was hearing with my bass vs what was actually being played - both visually and audibly in comparison to what I hear in my in-ears and send to the FOH. And then it clicked...our FOH engineer had applied a sub octave effect to everything I was playing on every song completely without my knowledge. It's literally like I had an octave pedal engaged over everything I was playing. If I played C on the third fret of the A string it sounded in the PA and recording as if I was playing a C on the first fret of the B string, and so on. Whole set, entirely like that. I had some melodic parts on a song that were being played above the 12th fret and it turned it all into garbled mud. All of my playing dynamics moving between octaves - gone.

I'm not going to pretend to know what our FOH has to deal with sonically in that room as I'm aware enough to hear with my own ears that it could be a handful. Our stage is silent except for drums (which are shielded), and the PA has flown mains with a couple stacks of dual 15 or 18" subs on each side. Amplifying bass in, in my mind, should not be a problem.

My setup to get a signal to them is with a Darkglass Anagram. At their request they get two channels from it - one that has an amp and cab sim applied, and one that does not. Either will get my effects when I apply them, and with the routing options of the Anagram it makes it super easy to do. I do my best to not over-EQ anything on the wet channel and it is essentially just a fattened tone, and I'm mostly flat on the electronics on my basses with usually a cut in treble depending on which bass I use. The dry channel is obviously everything without the amp and cab sim and it's as straight from my bass to the console as it can get. Effects are used very, very sparingly.

Talkbass - What the heck is going on that they felt they needed to run a sub octave effect? I've tried to read up on this and there seems to be no straight answer. I could understand maybe needing to fill some sonic space, but it was done completely at the expense of destroying my playing dynamics and note choice. I use a 5 string bass and I have no problem treading into the lower range especially since we've had to pitch songs down to accommodate vocal range. I feel like I've given them enough choices to work with that finding what works shouldn't be a tall task. With every mix I've ever heard the simple solution that I could think of to have more bass would be to turn up its volume and find a good eq curve that works. It shouldn't be complicated!

Help educate me if I've missed something new in the 27 years I've been playing bass.

It's the most amazing thing to have lived from a time late 60s up through the 80s when most of the sound engineers were real, experienced recording engineers moonlighting for extra cash and who could still make things work with comparatively horrible gear, especially for bass reproduction, to now a time when we have marvelous technology for sound gear, especially for bass reproduction, but most sound "engineers" don't know their a** from a gin whistle when it comes to how music should be balanced, ESPECIALLY in regards the bottom end. This whole idea of turning my sound completely over to someone I don't know or am not familiar with while I hide in IEMs on this magical "silent stage" () is completely crazy to me. I'm a stickler for how my sound, which I do have a sound, is reproduced. I know what I'm talking about but I NEVER approach the FOH guy in a confrontational way. It's always how we're going to work together. Consequently I've not had problems with pushback except on a few isolated occasions.
I'd bet the farm that the problem you had is that sound guy has probably never heard a properly balanced and tuned system in his life, has no idea how much bass should be in music, has the subwoofers cranked to max in his home and car system and no doubt has BEATs headphones. And that's exactly the kind of guy some of us are willing to put in complete control. Nope.

 

[JamesGrant]

I understand the various factors around doing live music with contemporary instruments in church worship settings. I was a pro sound engineer for a sound and lighting company and have done many, many church events. On the flip-side I grew up playing music in small churches and have volunteered (for many years) in church worship bands and sound teams. Not something I do anymore.

I think it’s great that TB has a mixture of people with backgrounds like mine and different, people who love church, people who have rejected church, and people who have never been involved in church.

In professional live sound work you seldom encounter incompetence and ego from your clients, and your job is clear - make the client happy, which means doing a solid job and being polite and gracious. It doesn’t matter what the band does, it’s your job to make it work, sometimes you can have a quiet word with the band to fix any issues, other times you just have to make the best of it. Sometimes the band are fully pro, sometimes totally amateur in outlook and ability.

Church sound teams have historically tending to attract quite idiosyncratic people with strong ideas and zero experience outside of the church bubble. Some of the most belligerent people (historically!) are church sound techs - people willing to work for free in sometimes difficult circumstances. Many church leadership don’t realise that they are running a complex ‘variety theatre show’ with no dress rehearsal. It’s a bunch of slightly odd and incompetent people who don’t communicate well or understand their job roles. Almost inevitable that there will be a wide mix of abilities and attitudes that wouldn’t survive the commercial world. Often the good people walk away tired and disappointed.

All that to say - I feel for you!

 

[OldShark]

So what would have happened if you put your own suboctave on?

Well, I'd rather know how the FOH sound will be with your new always-on octave up in full wet mode on both your outputs, because isn't that what you're about to do?

(Yes, it would sound even worse if the SE would low pass your signal...)

 

[badinage]

I own a dbx 120XP and have used it (and others) "under the radar" with live bands. Most commonly would with me mixing fronts in festival situations where I can't get a kick drum (that a drummer brought with him) "fat" enough quickly enough. Maybe a floor tom. These are no-soundcheck band changeovers. If the band brought their own mix tech I usually wouldn't even offer, but if they notice it in one of the the house racks, know what it's for (and seem to know what they're doing), I might admit that it's actually patched and ready to use. I've also used a subharmonic synth on a mic'd-only B3 once or twice, but never on a bass guitar. What CAN be fun is very judiciously sneaking one in on a bass vocalist, ...under the right circumstances of course.

It's still rare that a "subharmonic synth as a subtle general-augmentation effect" would be called for, but useful when it is, and no, under most circumstances I wouldn't tell anyone.

 

[fauxtoe]

I see.


Let me add several comments:

1. I don't think it is an "industry norm". On the other hand, it is a tool which the SE has at his/her disposal. If used judiciously, it is a great tool.

2. Take the "reaffirmation" here with grain of salt. First, none of us was there to hear how your bass sounded in FOH. Second, this is bass forum. If you ask in sound forum, you might get different results. Third, there are some dissenters.

3. My approach to that "issue" would be slightly different. I would try to understand why the sound engineer did it and would cooperate with him to accomodate his needs. There are hints in your description that he needs more low frequencies from you (the fact that he asked for signal without cab sim...and the part when you speak about playing above 12th fret). If this is the case, I would either play some notes one octave lower and/or adjust the signal I send to him. I wouldn't be so sure that my (original) choice of notes was the best and the only possibility.

Remember: I was not there so I don't know how your bass sounded in FOH. May be the signal you send to FOH is perfect and he is simply wrong. And may be not...

Good luck!

Regarding #3 -. A dry signal was not asked of me - it was offered by me when I switched over to the Anagram, as well as adding an amp and cab sim to the wet side. He seemed excited for both! Prior setups always had a preamp/DI at the end of the chain of which I used very sparingly for tone shaping and making sure they had good signal gain to work with. I'm not a mid-scooper, I boost very cautiously, and the only thing I tend to control the most on my end is the amount of highs coming from my bass with either its own tone controls or on the preamp/DI. Through every preamp, bass, effect and everything else I have ever played, not a single time has anything every been asked of me or commented on regarding my tone. I've always chalked that up as no news is good news and I've never heard a single complaint from anyone on stage or FOH.

I highly, highly doubt he needs more low frequency from me. Everything he could need to shape the tone is right there at his fingertips.

I understand the various factors around doing live music with contemporary instruments in church worship settings. I was a pro sound engineer for a sound and lighting company and have done many, many church events. On the flip-side I grew up playing music in small churches and have volunteered (for many years) in church worship bands and sound teams. Not something I do anymore.

I think it’s great that TB has a mixture of people with backgrounds like mine and different, people who love church, people who have rejected church, and people who have never been involved in church.

In professional live sound work you seldom encounter incompetence and ego from your clients, and your job is clear - make the client happy, which means doing a solid job and being polite and gracious. It doesn’t matter what the band does, it’s your job to make it work, sometimes you can have a quiet word with the band to fix any issues, other times you just have to make the best of it. Sometimes the band are fully pro, sometimes totally amateur in outlook and ability.

Church sound teams have historically tending to attract quite idiosyncratic people with strong ideas and zero experience outside of the church bubble. Some of the most belligerent people (historically!) are church sound techs - people willing to work for free in sometimes difficult circumstances. Many church leadership don’t realise that they are running a complex ‘variety theatre show’ with no dress rehearsal. It’s a bunch of slightly odd and incompetent people who don’t communicate well or understand their job roles. Almost inevitable that there will be a wide mix of abilities and attitudes that wouldn’t survive the commercial world. Often the good people walk away tired and disappointed.

All that to say - I feel for you!

A previous assistant engineer who was not a volunteer, but rather a paid staffer, fit the belligerent persona to a T. If looks could kill he would have murdered me multiple times. There was never a morning that guy ever cracked a smile or initiated a conversation. We're not talking some old dude who had a chip on his shoulder, but rather someone who was very young and really just getting his foot into the industry. I don't miss him, and I don't miss the previous culture that all started leaving around the same time he did. It made mornings really not a happy place to be and I did my best to be genuinely kind to him while also maintaining a wide berth. It's very much not the case now, and everyone on the team and tech crew are people I'd do anything for at the drop of a hat - including our sound engineer. His only "flaw" right now is needing more experience, and he doesn't have a grumpy or belligerent bone in him. I'm going to walk in next Sunday, say good morning as I always do, and go have a fun time worshiping. We'll get it figured out. This thread was very much an educate me request over something I had not ever experienced.

I own a dbx 120XP and have used it (and others) "under the radar" with live bands. Most commonly would with me mixing fronts in festival situations where I can't get a kick drum (that a drummer brought with him) "fat" enough quickly enough. Maybe a floor tom. These are no-soundcheck band changeovers. If the band brought their own mix tech I usually wouldn't even offer, but if they notice it in one of the the house racks, know what it's for (and seem to know what they're doing), I might admit that it's actually patched and ready to use. I've also used a subharmonic synth on a mic'd-only B3 once or twice, but never on a bass guitar. What CAN be fun is very judiciously sneaking one in on a bass vocalist, ...under the right circumstances of course.

It's still rare that a "subharmonic synth as a subtle general-augmentation effect" would be called for, but useful when it is, and no, under most circumstances I wouldn't tell anyone.

So let me ask this since you have some pretty good experience with on the fly mixing - why did you never use it on a bass guitar?