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D

Doufuss

Mar 4, 2009
897
705
West Coast Canada
#1
OK guys...

So, I went out and bought one of these 3015 drivers. I've built two cabs for it including a three way. Initially, I liked the three way but over time it kind of grated on me. The three way cab is around 3 c.f. and tuned to 45 Hz which is a little big and a little low for this driver. I'm keeping it and I plan to try another 15 with the mid and tweet I have, but that's for later...

The goal - a standalone lightweight and compact 15 suitable for practice and smaller to medium gigs.

Problem is, I find that there are just waaay too much mids and highs with this driver. Comments from the kid's band are not complimentary with either the standalone box or with the three way. "sure is trebly... ewww... stay outta my register!... "

The rig is a Lakland Skyline JO to Subway D800 to the cab. Instrument is all knobs wide open. With the amp, input is at or slightly below noon, voice off, all other knobs at noon and master to taste. This results in a very honky, ganky sound (Think Tame Impala - The Less I Know the Better) that is a little over the top for the band my son is playing in right now, which is a straight ahead rock band. The only way to get it set to "ROCK" is to basically boost the low mids to about 1 o'clock and cut high mids and treble to around 9 oclock. Which cuts some very important frequencies and winds up with the bass guitar kinda washing out of the mix. Voice adds some girth to the sound with all other knobs at noon and actually introduces some oomf (boominess?) at around 70 Hz, but the gank remains. (And yes, my ears are a little schwacked from heavy industrial construction for 40+ years, but my kid and his band mates agree there's something not quite right here)

Currently, it's in a 2.75 c.f. box (net of ports, driver and bracing) tuned to 50 Hz. I just built this cab. It's corner ported with ribs on the sidewalls, with struts front to back and side to side. Back wall only is lined with mattress topper.

I have winisd .950 and it says that this size cab, with that tuning, is the best all around configuration for this driver in terms of low frequency extension and power handling. The dancing rice test confirms tuning at 50 Hz within a range of about 5 Hz on either side of the target frequency. Frequency sweep from 30 Hz to 120 Hz with an online generator begins to produce audible bass starting around 35 Hz.

Don't get me wrong, there is abundant bass. It seems there's just too much mids and highs.

I have tried out the subway 115 and it sounds fine with all controls at noon with this setup. I also got my hands on a traynor TC115 neo to see how it sounds with another cab and it kinda sounds the same as mine, with a little less "gank". So it's not the bass or the amp.

Am I chasing my tail? Should I give up on this driver?

Thanks in advance for any comments.
 
#5
Perhaps it's not as easy to build your own cabinet and get really good as it seems. This why we work so hard in the design and prototyping phase. It's the combination of decisions that makes a good cabinet
 
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#6
Rick James said:
With the knobs at noon they might as well not be there at all. Put them to work, don't be afraid to turn them, that's what they're for. The 3015 isn't a particularly bright driver compared to other Eminence, and it's a long way from an EVM.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I'll experiment a little more with the controls. I have had a couple of 15B drivers, one in a TL606 and the other in a scoop and didn't find them bright at all. Just very clean and clear out to the limits of the driver. And some real punch.

OTOH the 3015 seems to have something else going on, like a spike in the upper frequencies.

As said, I'm going to also experiment with a little more lining and see where that goes.
 
#10
Doufuss said:
OK guys...

So, I went out and bought one of these 3015 drivers. I've built two cabs for it including a three way. Initially, I liked the three way but over time it kind of grated on me. The three way cab is around 3 c.f. and tuned to 45 Hz which is a little big and a little low for this driver. I'm keeping it and I plan to try another 15 with the mid and tweet I have, but that's for later...

The goal - a standalone lightweight and compact 15 suitable for practice and smaller to medium gigs.

Problem is, I find that there are just waaay too much mids and highs with this driver. Comments from the kid's band are not complimentary with either the standalone box or with the three way. "sure is trebly... ewww... stay outta my register!... "

The rig is a Lakland Skyline JO to Subway D800 to the cab. Instrument is all knobs wide open. With the amp, input is at or slightly below noon, voice off, all other knobs at noon and master to taste. This results in a very honky, ganky sound (Think Tame Impala - The Less I Know the Better) that is a little over the top for the band my son is playing in right now, which is a straight ahead rock band. The only way to get it set to "ROCK" is to basically boost the low mids to about 1 o'clock and cut high mids and treble to around 9 oclock. Which cuts some very important frequencies and winds up with the bass guitar kinda washing out of the mix. Voice adds some girth to the sound with all other knobs at noon and actually introduces some oomf (boominess?) at around 70 Hz, but the gank remains. (And yes, my ears are a little schwacked from heavy industrial construction for 40+ years, but my kid and his band mates agree there's something not quite right here)

Currently, it's in a 2.75 c.f. box (net of ports, driver and bracing) tuned to 50 Hz. I just built this cab. It's corner ported with ribs on the sidewalls, with struts front to back and side to side. Back wall only is lined with mattress topper.

I have winisd .950 and it says that this size cab, with that tuning, is the best all around configuration for this driver in terms of low frequency extension and power handling. The dancing rice test confirms tuning at 50 Hz within a range of about 5 Hz on either side of the target frequency. Frequency sweep from 30 Hz to 120 Hz with an online generator begins to produce audible bass starting around 35 Hz.

Don't get me wrong, there is abundant bass. It seems there's just too much mids and highs.

I have tried out the subway 115 and it sounds fine with all controls at noon with this setup. I also got my hands on a traynor TC115 neo to see how it sounds with another cab and it kinda sounds the same as mine, with a little less "gank". So it's not the bass or the amp.

Am I chasing my tail? Should I give up on this driver?

Thanks in advance for any comments.
Click to expand...

You built a cab design optimized for low frequency extension and power handling. This type of alignment often results in a subtle depression of the mid and upper bass, and an out of balance tone that is mid & treble dominant. Neither of these ensures a satisfying bass tone. It takes experience and some luck to get all 3.

Your perception of having a mids-treble dominated tone may be due to a lack of balance between the bass, and the mids and highs. Your cabs have been tuned too low. Try retuning to about 60 Hz (this is one of the advantages of using tubes for ports - the tuning is easily adjusted). You'll get a 'richer' tone. The added richness from tuning higher will help to produce a better balanced tone. Don't worry about overdriving the cab below Fb - just get the tone you want first. If this turns out to be a problem, consider getting a high pass filter (cuts the deep lows, while saving power and drivers).
 
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#11
AstroSonic said:
You built a cab design optimized for low frequency extension and power handling. This type of alignment often results in a subtle depression of the mid and upper bass, and an out of balance tone that is mid & treble dominant. Neither of these ensures a satisfying bass tone. It takes experience and some luck to get all 3.

Your perception of having a mids-treble dominated tone may be due to a lack of balance between the bass, and the mids and highs. Your cabs have been tuned too low. Try retuning to about 60 Hz (this is one of the advantages of using tubes for ports - the tuning is easily adjusted). You'll get a 'richer' tone. The added richness from tuning higher will help to produce a better balanced tone. Don't worry about overdriving the cab below Fb - just get the tone you want first. If this turns out to be a problem, consider getting a high pass filter (cuts the deep lows, while saving power and drivers).
Click to expand...

Really helpful advice.

My concern with a higher tuning was boom. It's a small cab and I thought tuned pretty high at 50 Hz, but it's worth a shot.

Lucky I used cheap cheap plywood for this first iteration. I'm going to rebuild with plastic ports next time for just the reason you stated.

Thanks again.
 
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#12
You are missing everything that has to do with mid voicing of the driver and the tradeoffs that go along with (stock) driver choices. Cabinet tuning doesn't affect anything meaningful above about 250-300Hz.
 
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#13
I never cared for the upper mids of the 3015 either . That's the gank sound you are talking about and agedhorse is right on the money about that sound , cabinet tuning has nothing to do with taming that tone .

I had a DR Bass cab that had that speaker in it and for sure it wasn't tuned for it , it came with an Eminence Beta 15 originally . It got loud and had pretty good low end but the mids were to honky for me so I only used it stacked with a 12" cab or my old 310 cab most of the time . One time we did a gig in a smaller bar and I just used the cab with the 3015 and it worked really well , I was suprised . In a full band setting the gank sound wasn't as prominent , it helped cut through in fact . Have you tried the cab in a live setting with a band to see if it might work ? Here's a picture of my cabinet under my 310 .
S7300036.JPG
 
#14
Blues Bass 2 said:
I never cared for the upper mids of the 3015 either . That's the gank sound you are talking about and agedhorse is right on the money about that sound , cabinet tuning has nothing to do with taming that tone .

I had a DR Bass cab that had that speaker in it and for sure it wasn't tuned for it , it came with an Eminence Beta 15 originally . It got loud and had pretty good low end but the mids were to honky for me so I only used it stacked with a 12" cab or my old 310 cab most of the time . One time we did a gig in a smaller bar and I just used the cab with the 3015 and it worked really well , I was suprised . In a full band setting the gank sound wasn't as prominent , it helped cut through in fact . Have you tried the cab in a live setting with a band to see if it might work ? Here's a picture of my cabinet under my 310 .View attachment 3193601
Click to expand...

You know what I'm talking about. Yes, in a live band situation the gank is still there but a tiny bit less obvious.

I was kinda tossing the idea around of placing an inductor in series to roll off some of that high end.

I tried running it with a mid, but in the wrong size cab and turned too low.
 
#18
dBChad said:
For bass, I think the Eminence 2515 sounds better than the 3015. The 3015 has quite a bit more mids, which would make it better for a 2 way than a 3 way. The 2515 is more focused down low, and usually flattens response a bit in 3 way enclosures.

Good luck!
Click to expand...

Thanks for that.

The kids played a show last night with a Traynor TC115 neo cab as backline. I got one here and it looks like it's loaded with the 2515 or something very much like it. At least visually. It sounded fine.
 
#19
Rick James said:
The 2515 and 3015 have almost identical mids and highs. The 3015 has flatter response in the midbass too.
Click to expand...

They both spike between 1KHz and 2KHz, but it's much more drastic in the 3015. The curve is flatter and smoother below 1KHz on the 2515. The 3015 is more sensitive though. The 2515 is better suited for a smaller enclosure.

Both are great speakers, I'm just listing my preference for application: 3015 for a 2 way, 2515 for a 3 way. Crossover design and frequency can tame them out a bit, as can reverse phase wiring the mid driver (causing any overlapping frequencies to cancel out and dampen each other instead of building on top of each other and peaking).
 
#20
Rick James said:
The 2515 and 3015 have almost identical mids and highs. The 3015 has flatter response in the midbass too.
Click to expand...
dBChad said:
They both spike between 1KHz and 2KHz, but it's much more drastic in the 3015. The curve is flatter and smoother below 1KHz on the 2515. The 3015 is more sensitive though. The 2515 is better suited for a smaller enclosure.

Both are great speakers, I'm just listing my preference for application: 3015 for a 2 way, 2515 for a 3 way. Crossover design and frequency can tame them out a bit, as can reverse phase wiring the mid driver (causing any overlapping frequencies to cancel out and dampen each other instead of building on top of each other and peaking).
Click to expand...

Reverse phase on the mid? Very interesting idea. I have a 6 CBMRA kicking around and a PXBII-800. And a cab to pop them in.

I'll give that a try.
 

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