Double Bass Hidden problems

[Matthew Tucker]

I have a bass that I have been playing for five years; nothing wrong with it, no neck problem, no breaks, looseness, tuning problems or rattles. And on internal inspection, no problems visible either.

However I have just opened the bass because i want to restore the slightly sunken top (which has been this way since i bought it).

Only then, I discovered that the joint between ribs and neck has given way on both sides; the ribs are only glued at the edges, and the block to the back.

Now, its probably been this way for some time, and might have held like this for many more years ... but it just goes to show you never really know what's going on inside the box!

I'm not sure if this is a "if it ain't broke don't fix it" moment, but its got me thinking.

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Well, I don't know what kind of Bass it is but on a few Basses of mine that I have seen opened or ones I opened my self decades ago I/we have found numerous things that needed structural and/or tonal correction.

In producing a Bass I am sure that external fit is a must but internally especially with factory Basses as well as with modern Hungarian copies I have seen things that should have never left the bench.

These include;
- A Necks that are fit around the edges only and not internally with the Block.
- A Bassbar that is touching in only 3 places and the rest of the glue joint filled in with sawdust.
- The Bassbar carved out of the Top aka integral Bassbar.
- The graduations the thickness at the edges that it should be in the center and in the center about 2x the normal thickness expected.
- The Graduations uneven throughout the Top with several areas overly thinned by previous restorers. Internal Breast patches must be put in and the graduated to rebuild the needed strength of the top.
- The Round Back of a Bass too thick overall with high arching and dense figured Maple. Pick any one of these features but all 3 in one Bass chokes the sound. Re-graduating a Back like this turns a 'thunk,' tap tone into a 'booommm' tap tone and the Bass when played is improved as well with more sweet low end boom to the sound when played.
- Internal Rib Lining 2x the normal thickness and 2x the normal depth. I had a Bass with both equaling 4x the mass it needed. This chokes the sound I believe.
- Internal Rib Linings doubled all around. One Bass of mine has a wide inner Lining strip and then a normal one on top of it doubled all the way around the inside. Also, it has 3/4"-1" wide strips running from Top to Back on the Ribs for added strength. The Ribs are 7 3/4" wide but only has about 5" of free vibrating wood inside these Linings and even that is interrupted by these strips.This is on my Loveri which is a good but not great sounding Bass. This is currently in restoration and all the extra Lining wood is coming out. I am expecting some noticeable improvements to this Bass. The Ribs were all replaced in 1937 and although the Back has numerous cracks being fixed now, the Ribs are 70 years old and without a single split that I can see.

So yes, if it 'aint broke, don't fix it' but if you suspect something may be wrong, it may be worth it to explore the inner condition if the Bass and make the necessary improvements.

 

[Matthew Tucker]

Well, I'm sure its not a bass you'd be interested in at all ... but it has value to me, but I estimated that the sunken top would lower any (low) resale value it might have. So that's why I opened it.

I guess I posted the thread as a caveat that once you get started you never know what you'll find!

It's very interesting to see repairs that have been made in the past and to try to work out WHY some of them were done.

For example, WHY would a repairer put beautifully neat spruce cleats at either end of the bassbar, and under the lower ff holes ... on a laminated top??? What's the risk of a crack?? Maybe its just "visible" work that justifies an extra charge to the owner?

And WHY would your uncracked Loveri ribs have been reinforced so strongly? Were they too fragile as built?

These two are not sloppy repairs. Someone obviously went to a lot of bother, but its hard to work out why..

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

For example, WHY would a repairer put beautifully neat spruce cleats at either end of the bassbar, and under the lower ff holes ... on a laminated top??? What's the risk of a crack?? Maybe its just "visible" work that justifies an extra charge to the owner?

Why would a Plywood Top be removed in the first place?

And WHY would your uncracked Loveri ribs have been reinforced so strongly? Were they too fragile as built?

These are not the original Ribs. The Bass is from 1873 and was cut in 1937 along with Invalid Link Removed at that time. From the looks of the Back condition and the [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] I can only assume that the Ribs were no better and new Ribs were thought to be needed to make the new bends for the sloped shoulders. Also, this Bass was entirely cut except for the corners. The C-bouts cut as well. Only small Invalid Link Removed around the Invalid Link Removed. I can only assume that the Restorer wanted to make sure the new Invalid Link Removed. Why? Who knows.

Maybe because the Bass is long he thought it needed the ribs like that. The Back after cutting is 44 1/2" long. With the Bass cut inside the original Purfling the Back must have been at least 45" long originally. With the Top currently at 43" long, the String length is almost 43". I cheated the Bridge a bit and made a false Nut to get the Bass under 42". It plays and sounds great now with the tweaking I did and after its restoration should be even better.

I guess I posted the thread as a caveat that once you get started you never know what you'll find!

So true Matthew!

 

[Matthew Tucker]

Why would a Plywood Top be removed in the first place?

I wish you would resist the temptation to be so dismissive of plywood basses. Of course, if you have nothing but fine master instruments you're entitled to consider anything less a disposable item, but that sort of comment will stifle anyone from daring to discuss their instrument in your presence. Is that what you want?

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

I wish you would resist the temptation to be so dismissive of plywood basses. Of course, if you have nothing but fine master instruments you're entitled to consider anything less a disposable item, but that sort of comment will stifle anyone from daring to discuss their instrument in your presence. Is that what you want?

Really, why would a Plywood Top need to be removed? It was a real question. You mentioned this in your earlier post of unnecessary work done to one. Other than a loose Bassbar or a sunken Top, I don't see why since it doesn't crack unless it gets smashed in. Correct me if I am wrong, please.

Maybe I haven't been around enough Plywood Basses but I have never seen one opened for real. It wasn't a snobby remark at all!

 

[Matthew Tucker]

Hmmm ... I think you might need to remove a ply top to repair any of these:

Neck block cracked?
Bottom block loose?
bad bassbar?
smashed rib?
soundpost patch reinforcement needed?

and yeah, loose bassbar, sunken top.

Of course, a clever luthier might be able to repair a loose tailblock without opening the bass. But removing the top would probably be the best way to get a good repair done.

Ply basses have other problems just the same as carved basses. Whether it's worth fixing remains a matter of personal judgement.

This bass

needed to be opened for major repairs. It could not have been done otherwise. The result is a fine-sounding, easy-to-play ply bass for my daughter.

Oh and this is what a ply top looks like from the inside:

 

[Jake deVilliers]

Nice breast patch Matthew.

I take it you have the Traeger book?

You can see the inside of a Kay top on the Gallery page of my website. It had a broken bassbar. I wish I'd read the Traeger before I had that top off, not that it doesn't sound great but...........

 

[milomo]

Nice breast patch Matthew.

I take it you have the Traeger book?

You can see the inside of a Kay top on the Gallery page of my website. It had a broken bassbar. I wish I'd read the Traeger before I had that top off, not that it doesn't sound great but...........

Any more pictures of the finished product?

 

[Matthew Tucker]

Any more pictures of the finished product?

of what?

 

[milomo]

of what?

Of the Kay from Jake's website.

 

[Jake deVilliers]

Milomo, no I didn't take any. I finished the bass just in time for it to go to Wintergrass in February.

I'd like to shoot the top and the beautiful Brazilian Rosewood fingerboard, just to have for my records. The tailpiece looks great in place too.

The bass needs a new bridge after the rainy disaster that was Darrington this year, so maybe I'll be able to shoot those pix then. Anything in particular you wanted to see?

 

[milomo]

Milomo, no I didn't take any. I finished the bass just in time for it to go to Wintergrass in February.

I'd like to shoot the top and the beautiful Brazilian Rosewood fingerboard, just to have for my records. The tailpiece looks great in place too.

The bass needs a new bridge after the rainy disaster that was Darrington this year, so maybe I'll be able to shoot those pix then. Anything in particular you wanted to see?

No, I was just curious what the whole thing looked like from some different angles. The couple of pictures you already have there made me want to see more, but don't trouble yourself on my account.

 

[Jake deVilliers]

I had that feeling too as I was going through the file selecting illustrations for the website.

The trouble with shooting as you're working is that there are big holes in the documentation process!