High School Student Progress Update, And Wood Questions

[Fish63]

Hey everybody, first of all I'd like to say thank you for the incredible and helpful responses I got on my first thread! it's been a pleasure reading them and I'm very grateful to have such a helpful resource to help guide me, here's my update on the 5 string fretless bass I'm making as one of my major works for my final year as a high-school student, I plan to take this bass to university and pursue a degree with it so I hope I to it the highest quality I possibly can.

Moving on to the main points of this post, I've gotten much closer to a final design I'd like to settle on and with holidays ending soon I've started ordering the parts I've decided on.

I've made a more detailed and precise "3D model" in blender (Really only a 2D one at this point) that pays more attention to the specifics of the body and components, and I've got a couple questions for you guys.

1) Changes made from the original body design:
There was a couple people saying the original design seemed too intense for the more... jazzy? instrument that is a fretless bass which I totally agree with. So overall I've tried to make it less "aggressive", it's now rounder and smoother, with less of a curve in the horns, still keeping the crescent-ish cut-out at the bottom as I want it to look unique, but have made it less extreme. Still not sure if this will be the final headstock design but I think I'm happy with it. Most notably I've decided to go with a neck-through build as I think it would be better appreciated by the project markers and I just think it looks real nice.

2) The size:
Clearly this isn't a super small instrument, I did this because I want it to stand out against the rest of my guitars and have a bit more of a spectacle to it, need to try and impress the ladies in university after all , however I don't want it to be so large that it impacts the playability of the instrument, How do you feel about the current dimensions shown? Does it possibly seem too large to be comfortable?

3) Wood choices:
Earlier today I went to a local wood supplier and talked to them about woods that may be suitable for a bass... and got partially embarrassed by the owner after he gave me the revelation that most of the woods I brought up (common woods I've seen recommended online) are more common in places like Europe and North America... I'm located in Australia, and as such this supplier has much easier, and cheaper, access to Australian woods, if there's anybody reading this who knows a bit about good Australian tone woods I would love to hear what you have to say! some timbers he recommended to me were silky oak, ash, white beach, Queensland maple, ebony, and purple heart.

4) Extra stuff:

If you can see any glaring issues with the design (other than the lack of machine heads) please, please, please point them out to me, no matter how small or insignificant they may seem, I'm a first time builder and don't have the keenest eye for small details, I think I'll chill out on some of the more frivolous ideas I had such as LED fret markers or having a multiscale fingerboard, foregoing those cool extras to ensure I can focus my time on build quality.

Huge thanks if you've managed to read through all of this, and an even bigger thanks If you'll take the time to give me your thoughts, ideas, and especially criticisms (that's what I need to see the most) school is starting again in a bit over a week and I'm super excited to finally get the build underway and to keep this forum updated on my progress until I can eventually post the final results, Thank you everyone!

 

[steve_ss]

@Fish63
Nice to see an update. Thanks. Since you asked, I have a few thoughts...

1) If you make a new thread for this project, put a link it at the end of the last thread so we can follow along. Or, just keep adding to the same thread. Whichever you choose, keep posting.

2) Wood choice... Listen to the local wood supplier. They know what is available. From what you listed, I would use a mix of ash and purple heart because I think they would look good together. Ebony for the fret board.

3) Shape and size... I have short fingers, so I prefer a short 30" scale. If your fingers can reach a 35" scale, go for it. Make sure you can find string you like in the scale length.

4) Overall weight... It looks big and heavy on paper. Cool design, just big and heavy. It would be easy enough later on to cut the body down a little if the weight gets too heavy. Once you cut all of your pieces, before you glue everything, put it all on a scale and see how much it weighs.

5) Never give up, never surrender. Keep working and keep posting pictures. It looks like a fun project.

 

[Alex Xander]

I have a decent amount of experience with Australian woods. One of your biggest challenges will be keeping the weight manageable, although given you are on the coastal side of the range, you probably have greater access to rainforest timbers than I do. I suspect one of my basses could well be one of the heaviest in talkbass history, Mothman included.


I do not subscribe to the tone wood philosophy with instrument solid body building, however I do believe a well constructed neck is crtitcal to the tonal quality of an instrument.

I doubt what your supplier is calling ebony is the same ebony that is very popular in instrument building circles (gaboon ebony), there is an Australian ebony that I have used for a top on a P bass. It's nice wood, but it's not what anyone here would recognise as ebony.

Quartersawn silky oak can look spectacular, here's the body of a 12 string I built with silky oak as a top

Silver ash is a beautiful wood to use for highlights, as it stays white with a finish applied.

Does your wood supplier stick any desert timbers? If so, I can wholeheartedly recommend gidgee and mulga for neck and fingerboard woods. They are insanely stiff and hard (gidgee is the world's third hardest timber), and despite their desire to kill you with large, razor sharp splinters, they are excellent.

Ironbark is another good choice for necks and fingerboards.


For your top, have you considered bookmatching a piece of camphor? It is very inexpensive considering how spectacular the grain is, and a well executed bookmatched top might snag you some points with the markers.

The top on this bass cost just 40 bucks from the wood shop at Ulmurra.

Please feel free to PM me or ask any questions here. Basses built from Australian woods (perhaps with the exception of Cole Clark) aren't especially common, but it's something I am very passionate about including in my builds.

P.S. You probably don't need to start a new thread with each question you have. Create a build thread, and it will be a great start to finish history of the end instrument.

 

[lbridenstine]

Two things I see in your drawing that may need to be adjusted:

1) The scale length measures from where the strings leave the nut on the fretboard side to where the string touches the bridge saddle. It looks like your line extends further each way on the drawing.

2) Make sure the tuner holes aren't too close to the edge of the headstock. They might be okay as is because the circles look bigger than the actual hole would be, so that might end up being just right. The string paths from the nut to the tuners looks good to me, so if anything I think it would be making the headstock slightly bigger if needed.


I don't know anything about Australian woods, but I was following along on a guitar build w/a gidgee top and that wood was beautiful! I really like camphor too.

 

[ardgedee]

@Fish631) If you make a new thread for this project, put a link it at the end of the last thread so we can follow along. Or, just keep adding to the same thread. Whichever you choose, keep posting.

I'd request OP just stick to a single thread. It's easier for those of us who've previously commented to see any updates, and every thread that's updated gets pushed to the top of the board again anyway.

It's not like Reddit and other sites where your thread eventually gets pushed off the front page no matter how active it continues to be.

 

[ardgedee]

2) The size:
Clearly this isn't a super small instrument, I did this because I want it to stand out against the rest of my guitars and have a bit more of a spectacle to it, need to try and impress the ladies in university after all , however I don't want it to be so large that it impacts the playability of the instrument, How do you feel about the current dimensions shown? Does it possibly seem too large to be comfortable?

As far as size goes, make a full-scale mockup out of cardboard or scrapwood and see how it feels to reach the nut while it's on your lap or hanging from a strap. 35" scale isn't inherently a problem (Carl Thompson makes 36" and 38" scale bass guitars and he's widely respected for the ergonomics), but longer scales demand more attention to how the overall construction fits you. Broadly speaking, if it's too far to reach, you have options like making the upper horn longer, or moving the neck deeper into the body (and adjusting the shape of the lower bout accordingly), or shifting the position of the lower carve a little towards the lower horn (for when playing on your lap). Strap pin position on the lower bout also affects balance.

Keep bridge placement in mind. Ordinarily the lightest, highest-pitched string is going to require the least intonation compensation, so you'll get a much better idea of how the bridge will fit by measuring 35" from the nut to the bridge on the highest string. For some designs, it's easier to handwave this in the design phase and dial it in while building because the bridge is well in from the edge of the body, but since your design will position the bridge right up against the back of the lower bout, you have to be more careful. There are other threads in Luthier's Corner about scale and intonation compensation, I recommend looking them up.

 

[Beej]

Your body design is smaller than a P-bass right now (lower horn notwithstanding), so it should be just fine. For a longer scale length, a slightly longer upper horn can be beneficial for making the overall reach to the nut less difficult.

Regarding woods available, I'd agree with your supplier that you should be looking at locally available hardwoods. You guys have some amazing timbers down under and many of us are quite jealous. To sort out what woods might be good for what purposes, you can use the Wood Database as a handy reference guide: The Wood Database Not all Aussie timbers are listed here, but many are.

You can check out commonly used north american timbers across many of the big manufacturers, reference their specs on this site, and compare to the aussie timbers to find something comparable. I usually look at 'average dried weight', 'janka hardness', 'elastic modulus' and 'shrinkage' as the most useful comparative specs. Common woods used in the old Leo Fender days are hard maple, ash (swamp), alder, and brazilian rosewood for fingerboards. Many woods can be used instead of course, but since these are the old guard, they can be used as references for how other woods may perform in the same roles. Keep in mind that wood specs can vary widely, even from the same tree, so consider things as ranges of specs rather than absolutes.

 

[Jazzdogg]

The college from which I retired banned silk oak because the sawdust made several people ill. You might want to research the weight, toxicity, and working properties of each species before you start buying timber.

For example, purpleheart is ungodly hard, very heavy, and dulls cutting tools quickly. It also shifts color and loses its purple hue over time.

If you are planning a painted finish, the appearance of the wood is less important than species selection when a clear finish will be used.

Additionally, make sure the wood is at equilibrium moisture content before and during milling; wood tends to move and warp as its moisture content changes: if the neck warps, a bolt-on will enable you to replace the neck.

Good luck with your project.

 

[J Posega]

I like this new design. I'd spend a little more time on the headstock and making sure (a) the tuners aren't too close to the edge of the headstock and (b) the strings have something closer to a straight path to the tuners from the nut.

I'd also make the lower cutaway deeper for better access to the upper end of the fretboard.

I think the best way to locate your bridge is to measure 35" from the nut to the high string bridge saddle set about 1/4" back from it's farthest forward position. Usually, your G ends up being almost spot on at scale length, and you want enough room to intonate the low strings which tend to be farther back from 'scale'. I defer to more experienced builders, but I think you might need to extend the body a bit or push the nut out farther from the body.

 

[singlemalt]

LED is a bit over the top, but don’t give up on some glow.

Luminlay is a great product. A rod of Luminlay that would do all the 3 mm side dots would be about $12. Easy to install. Face markers would add a bit more. Huge bang for the buck, no wiring, batteries or install hassles. Drill a hole, stick the rod in with a dab of super glue, cut it off flush, sand smooth. Simple. Glows for hours.

Looks like a great project.

Bridge pickup looks a little close to the bridge. I look to get the neck pup at about the P bass sweet spot.

 

[Beej]

LED is a bit over the top, but don’t give up on some glow.

Luminlay is a great product. A rod of Luminlay that would do all the 3 mm side dots would be about $12. Easy to install. Face markers would add a bit more. Huge bang for the buck, no wiring, batteries or install hassles. Drill a hole, stick the rod in with a dab of super glue, cut it off flush, sand smooth. Simple. Glows for hours.

Looks like a great project.

Bridge pickup looks a little close to the bridge. I look to get the neck pup at about the P bass sweet spot.

$12 in the US maybe, but I think he can count on at least triple that cost down under if not more. A single rod of Luminlay delivered up here is close to $30 CDN.

 

[singlemalt]

Good point. it’s been a while since I did my 3mm sidedots. Checking today, looks like the plain side dot rods, in any diameter are $19 US. The dots with the black tube outer layer are a bit more. I’ve had both, and prefer the plain blue rods.

Face dots come in 2mm thickness, and various sizes. Looks like about $30 US for face markers.

My experience was very positive. Quick shipping, easy install, super cool looking. And a bunch of pretty Japanese stamps on the package.

Luminlay 標準サイドポジション Standard series

I’m putting together an order to do a few basses and guitars. I still think it’s super cool, even at $20 a bass. Super easy install. I did buy the little key chain “charger light” for $7, but it isn’t at all necessary. Any light source gets them glowing, and once the room or stage lights go down, they glow bright.

Are they as badass as Stanley Clarke’s Alembic LED? No. But they also aren’t blinding bright.

What would pearloid or standard marker material cost?

 

[Fish63]

@Fish63
Nice to see an update. Thanks. Since you asked, I have a few thoughts...

1) If you make a new thread for this project, put a link it at the end of the last thread so we can follow along. Or, just keep adding to the same thread. Whichever you choose, keep posting.

2) Wood choice... Listen to the local wood supplier. They know what is available. From what you listed, I would use a mix of ash and purple heart because I think they would look good together. Ebony for the fret board.

3) Shape and size... I have short fingers, so I prefer a short 30" scale. If your fingers can reach a 35" scale, go for it. Make sure you can find string you like in the scale length.

4) Overall weight... It looks big and heavy on paper. Cool design, just big and heavy. It would be easy enough later on to cut the body down a little if the weight gets too heavy. Once you cut all of your pieces, before you glue everything, but it all on a scale and see how much it weighs.

5) Never give up, never surrender. Keep working and keep posting pictures. It looks like a fun project.

Thanks for the tip with linking the threads, I'm a little too young to of been around during the golden age of forums so this is actually my first time really using one.

For wood choices I was having the same thoughts you are so it's nice to see it be backed up, on the subject of size and scale length I've had the opportunity to play 35" scale instruments before and it felt comfortable, for the weight I mostly play sitting down so it shouldn't be too much of an issue, but I can definitely cut it down once I've got the wood sorted, maybe it's just me but I can't really perfectly picture how a 3D model will look until I've got it made if that makes sense, thanks for taking the time to reply and thanks for the encouragement!

 

[Fish63]

I have a decent amount of experience with Australian woods. One of your biggest challenges will be keeping the weight manageable, although given you are on the coastal side of the range, you probably have greater access to rainforest timbers than I do. I suspect one of my basses could well be one of the heaviest in talkbass history, Mothman included.


I do not subscribe to the tone wood philosophy with instrument solid body building, however I do believe a well constructed neck is crtitcal to the tonal quality of an instrument.

I doubt what your supplier is calling ebony is the same ebony that is very popular in instrument building circles (gaboon ebony), there is an Australian ebony that I have used for a top on a P bass. It's nice wood, but it's not what anyone here would recognise as ebony.

Quartersawn silky oak can look spectacular, here's the body of a 12 string I built with silky oak as a top

View attachment 5322500

Silver ash is a beautiful wood to use for highlights, as it stays white with a finish applied.

Does your wood supplier stick any desert timbers? If so, I can wholeheartedly recommend gidgee and mulga for neck and fingerboard woods. They are insanely stiff and hard (gidgee is the world's third hardest timber), and despite their desire to kill you with large, razor sharp splinters, they are excellent.

View attachment 5322504

Ironbark is another good choice for necks and fingerboards.


For your top, have you considered bookmatching a piece of camphor? It is very inexpensive considering how spectacular the grain is, and a well executed bookmatched top might snag you some points with the markers.

The top on this bass cost just 40 bucks from the wood shop at Ulmurra.

View attachment 5322506


Please feel free to PM me or ask any questions here. Basses built from Australian woods (perhaps with the exception of Cole Clark) aren't especially common, but it's something I am very passionate about including in my builds.

P.S. You probably don't need to start a new thread with each question you have. Create a build thread, and it will be a great start to finish history of the end instrument.

Hey Alex, been seeing you appearing multiple times in my threads and I just wanna say thanks for showing such a keen interest in my project, I agree with you about the importance of tonewoods possibly being a bit overnblown, thank you for your wood recommendations I'll be noting them down and bringing them up with the wood guy, specifically thank you for reminding me of camphor! Ages and ages ago my teacher mentioned book-matched camphor would be an excellent choice for my project, specifically camphor laurel, and I thought it looked great, however my shoddy memory quickly forgot the name of the wood and I couldn't find it anywhere...

I'm quite interested in using Australian woods for 2 reasons,
1) Affordability and accessibility
2) I can waffle on about it in my project folio because I'm told the markers love eating up stuff like that

I will probably end up making the wings of the final build out of camphor, but silky ash looked quite nice to me too! Thanks for your help.

 

[Matt Liebenau]

If you’re concerned about weight and you’re using a separate top you can easily weight relieve the main body before you glue the top on.

 

[Fish63]

Two things I see in your drawing that may need to be adjusted:

1) The scale length measures from where the strings leave the nut on the fretboard side to where the string touches the bridge saddle. It looks like your line extends further each way on the drawing.

2) Make sure the tuner holes aren't too close to the edge of the headstock. They might be okay as is because the circles look bigger than the actual hole would be, so that might end up being just right. The string paths from the nut to the tuners looks good to me, so if anything I think it would be making the headstock slightly bigger if needed.


I don't know anything about Australian woods, but I was following along on a guitar build w/a gidgee top and that wood was beautiful! I really like camphor too.

Keen eye, the reason for the lines seeming to not match up is because I got the measurements with the blender measure tool, but it looked a bit too crowded and hard to see all those lines and the text box with the measurements together in the screenshot so I just roughly lined over it and annotated it in MS paint, the scale length in the actual model should be accurate, about the tuner holes seeming too big, I thought that too but it's the measurements of the parts I bought which is a bit odd but maybe I read it wrong, they should be delivered soon and I'll see what size they are, you may be right about making the headstock bigger. Thanks!

 

[Fish63]

I'd request OP just stick to a single thread. It's easier for those of us who've previously commented to see any updates, and every thread that's updated gets pushed to the top of the board again anyway.

It's not like Reddit and other sites where your thread eventually gets pushed off the front page no matter how active it continues to be.

Good points, I wasn't sure if old threads would eventually just become pushed off even if being posted to, my main reason I would make individual threads is because I actually plan to look back over all the threads and talk about them in my project portfolio document as there is an 80 page size limit, and I plan to fill it as much as I can to squeeze in as many marks as possible, and for me personally I can keep better track of things and stay more organised if they're a bit separated, however I don't wish to clutter the forum or anything so if everybody thinks I should keep it to one thread I could do that, thanks

 

[Fish63]

As far as size goes, make a full-scale mockup out of cardboard or scrapwood and see how it feels to reach the nut while it's on your lap or hanging from a strap. 35" scale isn't inherently a problem (Carl Thompson makes 36" and 38" scale bass guitars and he's widely respected for the ergonomics), but longer scales demand more attention to how the overall construction fits you. Broadly speaking, if it's too far to reach, you have options like making the upper horn longer, or moving the neck deeper into the body (and adjusting the shape of the lower bout accordingly), or shifting the position of the lower carve a little towards the lower horn (for when playing on your lap). Strap pin position on the lower bout also affects balance.

Keep bridge placement in mind. Ordinarily the lightest, highest-pitched string is going to require the least intonation compensation, so you'll get a much better idea of how the bridge will fit by measuring 35" from the nut to the bridge on the highest string. For some designs, it's easier to handwave this in the design phase and dial it in while building because the bridge is well in from the edge of the body, but since your design will position the bridge right up against the back of the lower bout, you have to be more careful. There are other threads in Luthier's Corner about scale and intonation compensation, I recommend looking them up.

Thanks for the tips regarding bridge placement. I'll be sure to make a rough mock-up, possibly in the next few days if I have the time to see how the body shape feels, I'm pretty confident in the scale length as I've played 35" instruments and felt comfortable doing so. Thanks!

 

[Fish63]

Your body design is smaller than a P-bass right now (lower horn notwithstanding), so it should be just fine. For a longer scale length, a slightly longer upper horn can be beneficial for making the overall reach to the nut less difficult.

Regarding woods available, I'd agree with your supplier that you should be looking at locally available hardwoods. You guys have some amazing timbers down under and many of us are quite jealous. To sort out what woods might be good for what purposes, you can use the Wood Database as a handy reference guide: The Wood Database Not all Aussie timbers are listed here, but many are.

You can check out commonly used north american timbers across many of the big manufacturers, reference their specs on this site, and compare to the aussie timbers to find something comparable. I usually look at 'average dried weight', 'janka hardness', 'elastic modulus' and 'shrinkage' as the most useful comparative specs. Common woods used in the old Leo Fender days are hard maple, ash (swamp), alder, and brazilian rosewood for fingerboards. Many woods can be used instead of course, but since these are the old guard, they can be used as references for how other woods may perform in the same roles. Keep in mind that wood specs can vary widely, even from the same tree, so consider things as ranges of specs rather than absolutes.

My god that's an extensive wood database, I'll be sure to have a look over it... maybe not every entry of course, to see if anything stands out, I appreciate you've given me some specifics things to look out for like the dried weight etc. Thanks!

 

[Fish63]

The college from which I retired banned silk oak because the sawdust made several people ill. You might want to research the weight, toxicity, and working properties of each species before you start buying timber.

For example, purpleheart is ungodly hard, very heavy, and dulls cutting tools quickly. It also shifts color and loses its purple hue over time.

If you are planning a painted finish, the appearance of the wood is less important than species selection when a clear finish will be used.

Additionally, make sure the wood is at equilibrium moisture content before and during milling; wood tends to move and warp as its moisture content changes: if the neck warps, a bolt-on will enable you to replace the neck.

Good luck with your project.

I've seen a lot about purple heart being heavy and tedious to work with, I'm thinking about making a 5 piece neck and just using it for the smaller pieces in the middle as I like how it looks, this depends on if it will compliment the colour of the main wood I choose of course, and I am planning on using a clearcoat so I do have wood aesthetics in mind, as for silky oak sawdust being toxic that's definitely something I'll have on my mind from now on... definitely don't want to get poisoned while I'm working on my instrument, thanks for the help